Bush: "This government does not torture people"

[Emmzee]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071005/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_terrorism

In unrelated news, S&M shops near Guantanamo Bay report record sales this quarter.

[Agamemnon]

We've been torturing people since the Revolutionary War. Nothing new tbqh. The figure head of the current administration is doing what every other figure head did; denied it. I wouldn't think less of any other country as well.

[Texrat]

Again, though, the current administration is trumping those previous in many ways... especially in the efforts to codify torture. That makes the denial such a flaming joke.

And just because others do or have done it in no way excuses the abomination. Besides, every true leader knows torture is an ineffective interrogation technique.

[Agamemnon]

I wasn't using it as an excuse, it's just as an example. Also, this is a new age with new technology and new weapons and new laws. I would think our current administration would have to go through a lot more to do what was so easy to do a few decades back.

Also, there are different methods of torture. Some are very effective and they never have anything to do with physical harm.

[Zeph]

wait, this administration has passed into law bills that allow torture, yet they dont use them? Sounds like a waste of taxpayer money to me.

[Wizardman]

yea, but the fact they are evil terrorist is a good thing. I'm also glad rosie o donnel isn't on tv or anything, she's full of shit. I think bush could've done a bit better though, with the crap going on...

[jahrain]

wait, this administration has passed into law bills that allow torture, yet they dont use them? Sounds like a waste of taxpayer money to me.Actually, they passed a bill which changes the definition of "torture" so that they essentially can torture people in a way that does not fall under what they define as torture. Therefore they can say they aren't torturing anyone when they are.;)

[Pooky]

:fail:

Is it too late to pick another country to be born in?

[Agamemnon]

Oh? How about China? I hear they don't torture people there. :rolleyes:

[Bodzilla]

australians are to lazy to tortutre ppl

come here pooky :)

[jahrain]

How many people get tortured a day by canada's government?

[Emmzee]

How many people get tortured a day by canada's government?
Everyone that lives there.

[Kybo_Ren]

Sad how we still torture people despite the fact that torture is rarely reliable.

[Texrat]

Oh? How about China? I hear they don't torture people there. :rolleyes:

How about the many more enlightened countries in Europe as a better example? Like Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, etc?

Anyone who has never been outside of their own country, especially US citizens, are in for a real eye-opener if they ever go abroad. Given what I'e learned we should all be ashamed at what we accept here.


Everyone that lives there.

Ok THAT was funny. :lol:

[Agamemnon]

How about the many more enlightened countries in Europe as a better example? Like Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, etc?

Anyone who has never been outside of their own country, especially US citizens, are in for a real eye-opener if they ever go abroad. Given what I'e learned we should all be ashamed at what we accept here.
When the majority doesn't care, what do Americans really have to worry about then?

Also, I was born and raised in the country that coined the term "Banana Republic." Countries are as politically involved as their political leaders are. Because Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, and dozens of other small European nations aren't involved in the world, then they focus on things at home, and thus have nothing to really worry about. Denmark is renowned for their economy and demographics in employment and poverty, and it's because they're small enough in today's world for their government to be on top of things. If things seem too perfect somewhere else, then there's a good reason for it, and the fact of the matter is that not even 1% of the population lives in those countries, and thus moving there in the masses would just then create more problems for those countries and relieve stress on the countries they were leaving from.

[rossmum]

yea, but the fact they are evil terrorist is a good thing. I'm also glad rosie o donnel isn't on tv or anything, she's full of shit. I think bush could've done a bit better though, with the crap going on...
Oh right because everyone in the Middle East who takes up arms against the US and gets captured is suddenly an evil terrorist

ok


Everyone that lives there.
:v

[n00b1n8R]

Everyone that lives there.
fucking bang :v


australians are to lazy to tortutre ppl

come here pooky :)

or to have the death penalty, nukes, detention camps in political limbo on forign countrys (no, we detain all imigrents on our own soil :rolleyes:).

:awesome:

[Bodzilla]

:lmao:

still if people want to move to australia they have to do it the right way.

just landing on the Beach one day and Saying "sup?" aint quite enough.

[n00b1n8R]

Personally, if they want to come here and work, I don't see what the big deal is >_>

[Bodzilla]

go through the right channels and get a Passport.

As much as i dont mind people comming here i generally like Australia how it is atm. the more people we let in the smaller the land blocks get.
i dont know about u but in 50 years i dont want to be living in apartments because the immigration laws are scrapped and Every joe just strolls in.

[n00b1n8R]

if it were that easy don't you think they'd do that over risking their necks on some shitty boat >_>

in 50 years the world is going to be a very different to the world as it is today.


I don't think an influx into the work force is going to do australia any harm. I say look at the mexican immigrants in america for an example.

[Bodzilla]

But it will hurt houseing.

not to mention where are these people going to Live when they arrive? if they have to arrive illegally they certainly dont have the finance's or assets to be able to buy a house.
Which means goverment houseing.
which means we pay for them.

in america it's a bit different and the GOv doesnt give the same amount of support to people as we do.

I like having a big block of land, i like having a Backyard and i certainly Hate paying for people that havnt been able to support themselves.

[n00b1n8R]

Last I checked australia was pretty unpopulated in relation to it's size >.>

are you saying that having them in detention isn't costing australian tax payers anything?

[Bodzilla]

last i checked 95% of australia was a big ass fucking desert :maddowns:

putting them in detention costs money, yes of course.
not having any Restrictions Costs MORE money.

n00b get on xfire and we'll spare this thread.

[n00b1n8R]

dad's got the gaming computer :gonk:
besides, I prefer having these conversations in the open because you have the habbit of just going "noob your dumb you don't get it stfu".

perhaps the topic of imegration deserves it's own topic..

[Bodzilla]

STFU YOUR DUMB AND NEED TO BE TORTURED <:U

and now where back on topic :D

[Texrat]

When the majority doesn't care, what do Americans really have to worry about then?

A totalitarian government.


Also, I was born and raised in the country that coined the term "Banana Republic." Countries are as politically involved as their political leaders are. Because Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, and dozens of other small European nations aren't involved in the world, then they focus on things at home, and thus have nothing to really worry about.

Aggie. Dude. Did you really just say that??? :XD:

I take it you haven't been over there. Those folks are MUCH more involved in the world than US citizens are. It's not even close. You'd be amazed.


Denmark is renowned for their economy and demographics in employment and poverty, and it's because they're small enough in today's world for their government to be on top of things. If things seem too perfect somewhere else, then there's a good reason for it, and the fact of the matter is that not even 1% of the population lives in those countries, and thus moving there in the masses would just then create more problems for those countries and relieve stress on the countries they were leaving from.

That's still a tacit excuse for the way things are in the US. Are we the worst? No... but we sure are trending that way in many areas, especially education. Again, we should be ashamed. We are not setting the example we did in years past. We seem to care more about firebrand rhetoric than positive leadership.

[Agamemnon]

Tex, I was being sarcastic with my first comment. I'm pretty sure I've said it more than enough times there is no real excuse for the things politicians do.

Also, be logical. Being part of the UN/EU does not equate real involvement. Compare Finland's involvement with other countries with the US in terms of aid relief. Better yet, see which country is actually patted on the back for its efforts and who spends more on aid as well.

[Texrat]

Tex, I was being sarcastic with my first comment. I'm pretty sure I've said it more than enough times there is no real excuse for the things politicians do.

Also, be logical. Being part of the UN/EU does not equate real involvement. Compare Finland's involvement with other countries with the US in terms of aid relief. Better yet, see which country is actually patted on the back for its efforts and who spends more on aid as well.

I am being logical. I work for a Finland-based corporation (a VERY LARGE global corporation) and know firsthand the education, awareness and global involvement of the people in and around that country. The global grasp of the American citizen pales considerably contrasted against that of the typical European. I'm not making that up. I'm not talking out my ass or being "illogical". It's a very real phenomenon.

You're now focusing on aid (I'm not) which is skirting close to straw man construction, but even if I narrow my focus as well to that subtopic the US *still* lags many other nations in per capita global aid. Another embarrassing statistic you can look up.

[rossmum]

Tex is right. I've lived in the UK and visited mainland Europe constantly, you'd be surprised exactly how involved they are.

[Agamemnon]

Providing $16.254 billion dollars worth of aid is falling short? From what I'm reading it seems that the US ranks one of the last countries in wealth on a list of the wealthiest countries, and yet we're one of the top aid contributors around the world. Kind of has to make you think of how a country that struggles with money as it is is also the top-contributor in the world, huh? Need I remind you that's from government spending alone. I wasn't including multilateral aid agencies.

And I'm not entirely sure how working for a corporation based in Finland corroborates with the magnitude effect they have on the world. Seeing as how Finland is one of the smallest countries population-wise, I can see how you think they do so much; seeing as how few of them there are in comparison to other countries, their maximum efficiency is as high as their population growth can go.

And also, if we're arguing with how a company residing in a country effects others, I would think to automatically list Microsoft or McDonald's, two leading figures in globalization; both American. I would think you would know of all people that we have our hands in things that others would never wish to attempt.

[TeeKup]

australians are to lazy to tortutre ppl

come here pooky :)

I might just move there. No offense but when WW3 happens I think everyone will just ignore Australia.

[Texrat]

Providing $16.254 billion dollars worth of aid is falling short? From what I'm reading it seems that the US ranks one of the last countries in wealth on a list of the wealthiest countries, and yet we're one of the top aid contributors around the world. Kind of has to make you think of how a country that struggles with money as it is is also the top-contributor in the world, huh? Need I remind you that's from government spending alone. I wasn't including multilateral aid agencies.

And I'm not entirely sure how working for a corporation based in Finland corroborates with the magnitude effect they have on the world. Seeing as how Finland is one of the smallest countries population-wise, I can see how you think they do so much; seeing as how few of them there are in comparison to other countries, their maximum efficiency is as high as their population growth can go.

And also, if we're arguing with how a company residing in a country effects others, I would think to automatically list Microsoft or McDonald's, two leading figures in globalization; both American. I would think you would know of all people that we have our hands in things that others would never wish to attempt.

Your counterpoints are disingenuous and not directly to my points, Aggie. I'm not going to get entangled in that sort of mess. If you want to stick precisely to what I say and respond accordingly, with relevance, I'd be more than happy to continue. I prefer to avoid logical fallacies and tangents.

[Texrat]

Tex is right. I've lived in the UK and visited mainland Europe constantly, you'd be surprised exactly how involved they are.

I shouldn't have been surprised as I began working and traveling abroad, but I was. And humbled. I'm convinced by the counterarguments so far that this is really something people (especially US citizens) have to experience first hand to truly appreciate. Reading about something just doesn't quite cut it.

[Patrickssj6]

Providing $16.254 billion dollars worth of aid is falling short?
Well, yeah. If the war itself costs about as much. So compared....



...and yet we're one of the top aid contributors around the world.
Wait...what? Being stationary in a country doesn't really mean to aid.



Kind of has to make you think of how a country that struggles with money as it is is also the top-contributor in the world, huh?
Sounds cute I guess.



And I'm not entirely sure how working for a corporation based in Finland corroborates with the magnitude effect they have on the world. Seeing as how Finland is one of the smallest countries population-wise, I can see how you think they do so much; seeing as how few of them there are in comparison to other countries, their maximum efficiency is as high as their population growth can go.
I don't know what you define by "efficiency" but the population has basically nothing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita) to do with it.



And also, if we're arguing with how a company residing in a country effects others, I would think to automatically list Microsoft or McDonald's, two leading figures in globalization; both American.
Actually those aren't even on the list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Biggest_Public_Companies). But alright America is on top.



I would think you would know of all people that we have our hands in things that others would never wish to attempt.
Hmm...I don't know what to say.

[Agamemnon]

Well, yeah. If the war itself costs about as much. So compared....
"The war" costs a lot more than that.


Wait...what? Being stationary in a country doesn't really mean to aid.
Yeah, and I'm sure all the aid is going straight to Iraq. :rolleyes: I'm sure there's also some oil involved in the mix as well. :rolleyes:

Get a grip on reality and not on conspiratorial fallacies.


Sounds cute I guess.
Sounds like either there are funds we're not being told about being allocated elsewhere, or it sounds like the humanitarian aspect of the US government is actually doing their job.


I don't know what you define by "efficiency" but the population has basically nothing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_&#37;28nominal%29_per_capita) to do with it.
Oh, it isn't? You mean the fact that the seven countries in front of the US in GDP don't even have a population 1/10th that of the US has nothing to do with it?


Actually those aren't even on the list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Biggest_Public_Companies). But alright America is on top.
"The Forbes Global 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_Global_2000) uses four metrics to obtain this ranking: Revenue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue), Assets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset), Market value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_value), and profits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit). Consequently British based Barclays plc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclays_plc) has the biggest assets of any public company in the World with $1,587bn USD and is ranked 20th; [1] (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/18/Assets_1.html) whilst ExxonMobil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil) with the biggest revenue, profits, and market value is only 6th. [2] (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/18/MktVal_1.html)
The Fortune Global 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500) uses only a single metric, revenue, to get its rankings, and accordingly its list differs from the Forbes list. Also, companies for which revenue is available but that do not trade publicly (and therefore for which market value cannot be calculated), are eligible for the Fortune list but not for the Forbes list."

Those are also powerhouse conglomerates and most of them were private banking/oil businesses as well. It's really a no-brainer why they're worth triple-digit billions (albeit UBS AG, but, as they said, they were looking at it from 'their overall perspective').


Your counterpoints are disingenuous and not directly to my points, Aggie. I'm not going to get entangled in that sort of mess. If you want to stick precisely to what I say and respond accordingly, with relevance, I'd be more than happy to continue. I prefer to avoid logical fallacies and tangents.
No, I did. I'm not entirely sure how "I worked for a Finnish company" is really a point, but I refuted your point about our apparent lack of aid to other countries when we are apparently an actual leader, despite our finances. Otherwise, you can let me know when you want to accept the rebuttal instead of ignore it.

[Bodzilla]

Yeah, and I'm sure all the aid is going straight to Iraq. :rolleyes: I'm sure there's also some oil involved in the mix as well. :rolleyes:

Get a grip on reality and not on conspiratorial fallacies.

I lol'd. considering Johnny howard recently admitted to Oil being a major factor for the Invasion. :XD:

E:

I might just move there. No offense but when WW3 happens I think everyone will just ignore Australia.
lol have u ever played risk O:

everyone wants a peice of aussieland :cool:

[Emmzee]

Well, yeah. If the war itself
Operation Iraqi Freedom*
:eng101:

[Agamemnon]

I lol'd. considering Johnny howard recently admitted to Oil being a major factor for the Invasion. :XD:
There's some unbiased accurate intel right there. Straight from your prime minster's mouth. Real reliable there! :XD:

[Bodzilla]

yeah cause it's not like our Prime minister doesnt follow your president around like a lost dog or anything :rolleyes:

oh wait,

[Agamemnon]

Yeah, I'm sure he controls everything in your country, just like Bush controls everything in ours. :rolleyes:

Oh wait, they don't.

[Emmzee]

just like the Freemasons control everything in ours. :rolleyes:
http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-tinfoil.gif

[Bodzilla]

Yeah, I'm sure he controls everything in your country, just like Bush controls everything in ours. :rolleyes:

Oh wait, they don't.
??????

how does that even have anything to do with my post?

you said our prime minister was biased, yet your Presidents have had a History with oil.
and Johnny is just follow u guys so we are kept in your good books.... u know cause thats why where in Iraq after all. we followed you.

[Agamemnon]

And our president's history with oil has to do with what now? Considering the idea of a figure head actually contriving something as complex as a multi-billion spending budget for this country for a few lousy oil wells, a lot of which were destroyed or were left to burn, is not only a blind spot in a conspiracy, it's also one that doesn't make sense, because, for one, he has as much control over our government as a janitor. His key card is co-neck-shuns and ka-riz-mah. That's all he runs on. Also, if he wanted to get rich (even though he already very much was before he was sworn in) he could've done it a lot easier with less complications and without anyone thinking a double take. The whole "it was for oil!" lacks so much logic that anyone who actually uses it lacks an imagination.

Also, I find it interesting how most countries were first sending what armed forces they could into Iraq, but when one country stepped off to scream, "Conspiracy!" then the rest saw a chance to give up and not give a damn about other people and joined on in on the fun. And because your country and Britain are the only one with the balls to actually stay in the fray, their figure heads too are ridiculed, like as if they gave the direct order to occupy the country as long as the US did, despite the fact that the majority of the government procedural body also has to approve whether to continue funding for the operation or if the stationing of troops should continue.

I'm surprised no one has really said the obvious; that Iraq was not only an operation of liberation, but a front to gaining a new ally in a future section part of the world where new enemies may arise, and also by striking fear into those that would think they would do harm to our countries.

Also also, until you actually meet an Iraqi, you really can't say one way or the other how the people feel, lest you watch some more propagandistic news media that only bother to show angry Iraqis. Believe it or not, but I some how doubt the majority of Iraqis are pissed about not having to worry about being kidnapped in the thick of night and being executed for religious differences.

[Texrat]

No, I did. I'm not entirely sure how "I worked for a Finnish company" is really a point, but I refuted your point about our apparent lack of aid to other countries when we are apparently an actual leader, despite our finances. Otherwise, you can let me know when you want to accept the rebuttal instead of ignore it.

You didn't refute anything, Aggie. You have been spinning my original point (just as you do so in that quote) so that you can continue a very disingenuous defense of a sad situation in the US. A disgusting tactic IMO, and one more befitting of imbeciles, not someone as obviously otherwise as intelligent as you. Fox "news", however, would be proud.

But I'll bring it back down to ground zero for you if it helps: European citizens are typically more knowledgeable, more enlightened and more involved with global events and affairs than are US citizens. And that's on a per capita basis, a qualifier I included earlier that you arbitrarily stripped away.

And FYI, It doesn't require "conspiracy fallacies" to recognize the severe corruption of the Bush administration and the gross misadventure of the Iraq war. Just an awareness of history, of the critical context underlying the cloudy rhetoric, and a willingness to suspend crippling bias.

You're wrong on so many counts vis-a-vis the subjects covered in this thread that there's no clear place to begin refuting them. But it's obvious you've decided a superficial analysis of issues is good enough, and logical fallacies are an appropriate form of "rebuttal", and that precludes anyone from disabusing you of warped notions.

Bummer.

[Texrat]

I lol'd. considering Johnny howard recently admitted to Oil being a major factor for the Invasion. :XD:

Of course it was. And those armchair warriors supporting the wholesale invasion and slaughter of Iraqis over it are self-desensitized to the underlying factors.

For one, Bush and Cheney both declared "freeing" Iraq (from the dictator their little cabal helped install) would open up the oil spigot. This implies lower fuel costs since it would threaten the grip of OPEC. Instead, we all know what happened to those costs.

For another, oil has been an issue all throughout the "war on terror", from the meetings between Unocal and the Taliban (!!!) to discuss an oil pipeline across Afghanistan to the protection of Iraqi wells over museums to the heavy involvement of Haliburton. Oil sits at the bottom of the world economy so one would have to be profoundly naive to think it wasn't one of the largest motivations involved.

But the main thing Iraq gained for the oil-enriched Bush cronies was pivotal real estate in the region. It is their base of operations for de facto control of mideast oil, a strong message to the Saudis that the age-old love-hate relationship between billionaire sheiks and their western counterparts is tipping away from the established detente.

This isn't "tin foil hat" stuff. This is common-sense analysis fueled by easily-available and digestible data. This is a separation of Ready-Mix US partisan politics from ugly global reality. Very sad that some Americans so easily lap up the rhetorical pablum ladled out by the politicians and "news" media of their choice. Just proves Orwell increasingly correct. Especially when excuses and denials are made over torture.

[Bodzilla]

Of course it was. And those armchair warriors supporting the wholesale invasion and slaughter of Iraqis over it are self-desensitized to the underlying factors.

For one, Bush and Cheney both declared "freeing" Iraq (from the dictator thier little cabal helped install) would open up the oil spigot. This implies lower fuel costs since it would threaten the grip of OPEC. Instead, we all know what happened to those costs.

For another, oil has been an issue all throughout the "war on terror", from the meetings between Unocal and the Taliban (!!!) to discuss an oil pipeline across Afghanistan to the protection of Iraqi wells over museums to the heavy involvement of Haliburton. Oil sits at the bottom of the world economy so one would have to be profoundly naive to think it wasn't one of the largest motivations involved.

But the main thing Iraq gained for the oil-enriched Bush cronies was pivotal real estate in the region. It is their base of operations for de facto control of mideast oil, a strong message to the Saudis that the age-old love-hate relationship between billionaire sheiks and their western counterparts is tipping away from the established detente.

This isn't "tin foil hat" stuff. This is common-sense analysis fueled by easily-available and digestible data. This is a separation of Ready-Mix US partisan politics from ugly global reality. Very sad that some Americans so easily lap up the rhetorical pablum ladled out by the politicians and "news" media of their choice. Just proves Orwell increasingly correct. Especially when excuses and denials are made over torture.
:rape:

Marry me Tex.

[Agamemnon]

You didn't refute anything, Aggie. You have been spinning my original point (just as you do so in that quote) so that you can continue a very disingenuous defense of a sad situation in the US. A disgusting tactic IMO, and one more befitting of imbeciles, not someone as obviously otherwise as intelligent as you. Fox "news", however, would be proud.

But I'll bring it back down to ground zero for you if it helps: European citizens are typically more knowledgeable, more enlightened and more involved with global events and affairs than are US citizens. And that's on a per capita basis, a qualifier I included earlier that you arbitrarily stripped away.

And FYI, It doesn't require "conspiracy fallacies" to recognize the severe corruption of the Bush administration and the gross misadventure of the Iraq war. Just an awareness of history, of the critical context underlying the cloudy rhetoric, and a willingness to suspend crippling bias.

You're wrong on so many counts vis-a-vis the subjects covered in this thread that there's no clear place to begin refuting them. But it's obvious you've decided a superficial analysis of issues is good enough, and logical fallacies are an appropriate form of "rebuttal", and that precludes anyone from disabusing you of warped notions.

Bummer.
I'm curious to see where I've said I agreed with our government, agreed with the war, or agreed with the news media. I'm also curious as to how "obvious facts" go ignored on your part because you believe they come from a biased source. More so, Tex, the only person I really seeing trying to prove something here is you. You state how "the facts are obvious" and yet there are no facts in this matter. You have your extremists on one side and then you have your extremists on the other. One side is preaching that the war is a great effort, while the other side is preaching fallacies and propaganda (well, actually, both are spewing propaganda).

Again, no imagination. Believe it or not, but I'm glad Hussein is no longer in power. Just a small step of what people think was something we did for the Iraqis, but we did for ourselves (such as gaining a new ally, as I said). Just along the way we happened to also get rid of a dictatorship.

I'm not entirely sure why people are blinding by both extremes, but it saddens me that from 16-year-olds to people in their 50's don't differentiate in their thinking. Both are blind to both sides of politics and believe reading some obscure gazette is apparently an "unbiased source of media." As of now, of course, the majority of Americans are tired of the war, simply because they don't have the attention spans to sit down and try and think about it. So what do they do? They listen to the first nay-sayer there is and everyone hops on the band wagon.

I have yet to see a government in its entirety work as it should, as in actually serving the people, whether its your perfect Finland government, or your Chinese government. It's all just a matter of the way people perceive things and think they know what they're talking about, and think they are individuals, when all they are, really, are just sheep. We no longer draw lines in this country for people to not step over, because we just use the, "Oh, he'll learn from his mistakes," or, "Oh, we shouldn't judge a book by its cover; we should investigate!" which are just actual affronts to excuses, because no one does actually independently investigate or learn from their mistakes, because, if they did, we would not be where we are now. And I don't mean Iraq, I mean the situational place of this world.

I've met plenty of Europeans, Tex, so please don't make the mistake that I was some how sheltered here in America. I wasn't even born here. I've only lived half of my life here. I came here with an open perspective on people only to find everyone in this country, and many others, have already made up their mind, and their children grow up to be just like them because their number one source of information comes from their parents. It's simply amazing to find my Czech friend have to have a frown on his face and then ask me, "Why do they do that?" and have to explain to him the truth behind things.

And this is all relevant, even though you have already made up your mind and have decided that you are right and I am wrong on the situation. Ageism isn't a pretty thing, and I certainly don't treat ever 13-year-old I meet like a typical 13-year-old, because there are plenty of people, even younger than I, that do have a streak of individualism, but after age 30, you can kiss that goodbye, because, by that time, you've already made up your mind as to who you are and what you believe, and are, therefore, no longer open-minded. You might like to tell yourself you are; that you are free to choose what you wish to believe, but the truth is that conditioning has already settled in and has done its job to the point where you convince yourself that you are different, despite that you might not be.

And it'll just be a continuing loop. We'll have our Huxley's and our Orwell's and our Asimov's all try to do what the previous people do and fail, and they'll be so over come with hopelessness that they'll fade into obscurity, only to be remembered on a 12th-grade exam, all because people feel as if they are comfortable with the way things are and do not see a reason for change, and those same people are the ones that are bandwagoning today, now, here, going out in the streets protesting, that will never get anything done, because they too are the unproductive ones, and they too were the same people who were happy with their lives.

So please don't lecture me on individuality of independent investigation. I haven't turned on the tv to watch the news in over three years. Hell, I barely watch tv as it is. Some how I feel it is more important to volunteer and help out those in need, because, at this point in time in my life, that is all I can do, and that alone bothers me to such a degree that I contemplate whether or not I can keep sane long enough to do what I wish to do. That is a luxury you no longer have to worry about, because you had your chance, and so did many others, and they did not rise up to it, and so it is now left up to my generation, which is falling down quicker then any other previous generation, to fix the problems everyone has decided to shrug off. And what's going to be the most unsettling is that when we do get to the stage of real involvement, people, again, will moan and groan about the complexity of it and the sacrifice of it, all because they think for themselves, and they're only looking out for themselves, and we will then, again, be doomed to repeat our mistakes over and over again, until some unheard of catastrophe strikes and fear settles in, only to have the scum of the earth, once again, take the opportunity to build the old empire anew.

So you'll have to excuse me if I'm not ready to give up and give in and conform with the rest of you. I'm not going to let people down just yet.

[Mass]

Believe it or not, but I some how doubt the majority of Iraqis are pissed about not having to worry about being kidnapped in the thick of night and being executed for religious differences.

Because that has obviously stopped happening, right?

Saddam's regime was essentially an occupation in itself, except soldiers and people spoke the same language. I some how doubt that the administration is actually stupid enough to think that destroying the regime and leaving the militant factions to be based on religeous beliefs is going to end islamic extremism.

Their reasoning is either stupid or greedy and I go with both.

I will admit though if you really do believe neocon philosophy and that Iraq had WMD's it is actually a success.

Besides oil or no oil if you're associated with military contractors then bombs away, literally.

[Texrat]

And this is all relevant, even though you have already made up your mind and have decided that you are right and I am wrong on the situation. Ageism isn't a pretty thing, and I certainly don't treat ever 13-year-old I meet like a typical 13-year-old, because there are plenty of people, even younger than I, that do have a streak of individualism, but after age 30, you can kiss that goodbye, because, by that time, you've already made up your mind as to who you are and what you believe, and are, therefore, no longer open-minded.

Oh what a load of (ironically) prejudiced crap.

You can sling that stuff at many people, but I'm not accepting it. My personal opinions are shaped by experience and information, which accumulate as I age, and therefore if something comes along that contravenes my current beliefs I will most definitely re-evaluate said beliefs and see where adjustments might be required. So save the stereotypes, Aggie. At 30 I would have dismissed "conspiracies" just as fiercely as you. Then I learned better.


So please don't lecture me on individuality of independent investigation. I haven't turned on the tv to watch the news in over three years.

And yet there's still that undercurrent of neoconservatism in your responses. Osmosis maybe? Oh wait: PNAC is older than that. :p


So you'll have to excuse me if I'm not ready to give up and give in and conform with the rest of you. I'm not going to let people down just yet.

Conform??? :XD: Wow... first time in 46 years THAT label was ever aimed my way. People who know me in person are gonna get a kick out of that one! Thanks.

And keep on firebranding, bubba! At least you have passion in your convictions (as pessimistic and misguided as some may be). That's better than the muddled middle (the real bandwagon you were looking for).

[Agamemnon]

What a fucking joke. What an absolute fucking joke. I actually had to look up neoconservatism. That's a new one. I've been labeled everything from "liberal bitch" to "tree hugger" to "hippy" to "fascist Republican" to "communist" (like that one's even bad :lol:) to "the future Hitler." People never cease to amaze me. I liked it better when people accepted they didn't know what they were talking about. I mean, seriously. I've met 80-year-olds who know as much as 12-year-olds, and you think the so few things you've seen in your life makes you a qualified expert? You're not better than Dole then.

I guess I thought wrong about you.


Because that has obviously stopped happening, right?
One would think one of the reasons to stay there is to try and reinstate some sort of government so they can get back on their feet. If we did leave right after we caught him or when he was hanged, the country would've just gone through another cycle.

But oh, I forgot, thinking logically makes me a "neocon." :lol:

Hold on, let me go watch some Republican propaganda, blast it, then go watch some Democratic propaganda and consider it unbiased and original. :lol:

[Mass]

1)Iraq goes down the shitter with Americans dying

2)Iraq goes down the shitter without Americans dying

Awaiting further instruction.

[Agamemnon]

You're right, we should just give up and care about ourselves. Who gives a shit about other people. Let them all die and kill each other. What horrible people we are. :rollseyes:

[Mass]

Yes, and let's all sit around trying to take responsibility for an asshole we didn't elect. Sounds fun.

[Agamemnon]

We didn't? :confused:

Maybe if the majority of Americans decided to vote...:confused:

Who knows, maybe they'll stop looking at the scape goat and start pointing the fingers at the real people pulling the strings.

[Mass]

an asshole=figure head for coporate greed helping administration.

Not that republicans are the only ones under the influence of corporations of course, but I think just a bit more.


Maybe if the majority of americans didn't have crappy educations and a manipulative media:confused:
Maybe if they the majority of Americans weren't herded like sheep into factions in an inadequate party system:confused:

[Agamemnon]

The Republicans are the bad guys as of now because they control most of the government. Go back to the years of the Democrats ruling the elections and it was them instead. It's just a never-ending shift of power and the ruling parties trying to get a piece.

Also, the solution being that if Americans actually thought for themselves then we wouldn't be here where we are. Generations upon generations allowed this to happen, so there is no one to blame except ourselves.

See, isn't this nicer? Being reasonable and logic?

[Texrat]

What a fucking joke. What an absolute fucking joke. I actually had to look up neoconservatism. That's a new one. I've been labeled everything from "liberal bitch" to "tree hugger" to "hippy" to "fascist Republican" to "communist" (like that one's even bad :lol:) to "the future Hitler." People never cease to amaze me. I liked it better when people accepted they didn't know what they were talking about. I mean, seriously. I've met 80-year-olds who know as much as 12-year-olds, and you think the so few things you've seen in your life makes you a qualified expert? You're not better than Dole then.

I guess I thought wrong about you.

Ah. So you don't like mischaracterizations either. Maybe you should avoid kneejering into insipid accusations like "ageism" then. Just a thought. ;)

And here's a newsflash: your anecdotal 80 year old is an anomaly, I guarantee it. So let's avoid the silly overreaching for pointless examples, shall we, and play in the reality sandbox? Thanks.

You wanna slam me with a Dole comparison, well, fine... but if you had an objective bone in your body, Aggie, you'd realize the wrongness of your tangent-pulling tactics. You want reasonable, constructive dialog rather than ad hominem flaming, then you have an obligation to avoid the trolling tools that pull a discussion in distorting directions. Respond specifically to what's posited, NOT some deliberately-spun version. THAT is a typical neoconservative ploy (although admittedly not limited to that demographic).

If you can take a deep breath, calm down and do just that, I'll gladly debate the subject with you in academic fashion. Otherwise, I have no such motivation. Your call.

[Agamemnon]

Ah. So you don't like mischaracterizations either. Maybe you should avoid kneejering into insipid accusations like "ageism" then. Just a thought. ;)
Why? Seeing as how it proves correctly, because people equate experience with age, and thus those that are young aren't taken seriously, albeit that most of the time that is the case, but with "adults" it's a case of making themselves think they're right when they aren't.


And here's a newsflash: your anecdotal 80 year old is an anomaly, I guarantee it. So let's avoid the silly overreaching for pointless examples, shall we, and play in the reality sandbox? Thanks.
Actually, it isn't. I've met plenty of "adults" with the same mentality of my fellow peers in my generation. Want to know what the difference is? The vernacular and the clothes.


You wanna slam me with a Dole comparison, well, fine... but if you had an objective bone in your body, Aggie, you'd realize the wrongness of your tangent-pulling tactics. You want reasonable, constructive dialog rather than ad hominem flaming, then you have an obligation to avoid the trolling tools that pull a discussion in distorting directions. Respond specifically to what's posited, NOT some deliberately-spun version. THAT is a typical neoconservative ploy (although admittedly not limited to that demographic).
So wouldn't that go for you as well? Or for others that pull that defense too?

And the Dole comparison comes from him thinking he's a "cultural expert" after living in New York. He thinks because he's experienced a certain stereotypical demographic that it makes what he says hold water and make sense, when, in fact, he hasn't seen 1/16th of 1/16th of 1/16th of what this world has to offer, and neither have you or me. The only difference is I don't act like I know what's really going on and claim it as fact, because I accept the possibility of being wrong, and it's also why I don't go around telling others that this is hard-based fact.

So until you actually point out how I "wasn't on topic" or how I was "trying to spin a different story" I'm still going to have to go with you just blatantly denying what you read because you've already made up your mind that you think you know.

[Texrat]

Of course it would apply to me, Aggie, and of course for anyone. But I'm not the one spinning the points of others in this thread. I don't see anyone but you doing it. Same goes for the persistent tacit defense of Bush and company.

And if you can't see the error in your responses for yourself, how the hell am I going to convince you of it? Think about that a bit.

But feel free to think as you will, however utterly wrong it may be. That's your right. ;)

[Bodzilla]

More so, Tex, the only person I really seeing trying to prove something here is you.
Everyone else just gave up and walked away
not because we think your right, or u have an awesome argument, we just realised that in order to explain this to you to sway or dint your "set in stone" opinion we'd be posting for a week.
not worth the effort.
:eyesroll:

[Texrat]

Everyone else just gave up and walked away
not because we think your right, or u have an awesome argument, we just realised that in order to explain this to you to sway or dint your "set in stone" opinion we'd be posting for a week.
not worth the effort.
:eyesroll:

I will forever be convinced that you're wrong.








Sorry, had to do that. :p

[Bodzilla]

<3 babe

[Mass]

The Republicans are the bad guys as of now because they are douchebags with a philosophy that even fails in theory.

FTFY

:eng101:

[Dr Nick]

Everyone else just gave up and walked away
not because we think your right, or u have an awesome argument, we just realised that in order to explain this to you to sway or dint your "set in stone" opinion we'd be posting for a week.
not worth the effort.
:eyesroll:
iawtp:eyesroll:

[Emmzee]

You guys are just jealous because Bush is handling the War on Terror much better than you could.

[Mass]

Yeah, I don't know how he gets it all done so quick and has so much time for crack vacations, I wish I was that industrious.

[Emmzee]

Yeah, I don't know how he gets it all done so quick and has so much time for crack vacations, I wish I was that industrious.
Jealous.

[Texrat]

You guys are just jealous because Bush is handling the War on Terror much better than you could.

Say that out loud without your face cracking.

[Emmzee]

Say that out loud without your face cracking.
Easy.

Someone loan me a webcam so I can show Tex.

[nooBBooze]

Hmm idk what i would prefer if i had the chioce: being kidnapped and executed by some "terrorists" or ending up in some US secret prison and eventually get insane and/or get tortured to death.
For now id stick with the terrorists. :/

[Texrat]

We could always read the book linked below and have a more informed debate on the subject...

http://www.amazon.com/Monstering-Inside-Americas-Interrogations-Torture/dp/0786717769/ref=sr_1_1/105-6801984-0710818?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185900958&sr=8-1

[Jay2645]

A little off-topic, but:
[quote=n00b1n8R;170255
I don't think an influx into the work force is going to do australia any harm. I say look at the mexican immigrants in america for an example.[/quote]
I live in Southern California (Where about 95% of the immigrants that don't go to Texas go), and I must say, it has taught me to HATE illegal immigration. Not only are they stealing our jobs, they are also:

Causing millions of fatalities (Actual, legal, citizens, at that) a year in car crashes.
Making us wait in the EMERGENCY room for hours on end before we get treated because they HAVE to treat anyone, no matter what illness they have, causing many deaths each year. Most illegals go in there for childbirths (Taking advantage of our hospitality in making everyone born here a citizen), but many also go in there for the common cold and other non-emergencies.
Bringing down our school system, making those who actually can SPEAK ENGLISH wait for the Mexicans to catch up.
Lowering housing prices by dirtying up neighborhoods.
Causing thousands of fatalities and billions of dollars worth of damage a year by forming Mexican gangs.
Breaking into a Gamestop where my friend was going to pre-order Halo 3 and stealing EVERY COPY of Halo 3 (A personal issue, I know, and they were caught, by the way).
Going by our houses all night, blaring Mariachi music out their car windows (Another personal issue, I know).
Raising our taxes by taking advantage of our services.
Closing down the only good stores still around us and replacing them with giant Mexican supermarkets that use up all the power, lower housing values, and play more Mariachi music.
Creating REALLY stupid court cases, saying that the Police were using "Excessive Force" when protecting the peace by breaking up pro-illegal-immigration marches.
Somehow managing to elect a corrupt mayor in LA who PROMOTED Mexicans moving in illegally.
Somehow managing to arrest 2 boarder patrol agents for shutting down an illegal immigration ring.
Did I mention illegals don't pay a penny in taxes?
Making more and more people flee to Australia.But I digress.

Of course Bush is torturing people, every country ever has.

[ImSpartacus]

just landing on the Beach one day and Saying "sup?" aint quite enough.

Don't tempt us Americans, we'll go all Normandy on your ass.

[Pooky]

Don't tempt us Americans, we'll go all Normandy on your ass.

You do of course realise that far more than just Americans took part in the Normandy landings.

[jahrain]

A little off-topic, but:

I live in Southern California (Where about 95&#37; of the immigrants that don't go to Texas go), and I must say, it has taught me to HATE illegal immigration. Not only are they stealing our jobs, they are also:
Causing millions of fatalities (Actual, legal, citizens, at that) a year in car crashes.
Making us wait in the EMERGENCY room for hours on end before we get treated because they HAVE to treat anyone, no matter what illness they have, causing many deaths each year. Most illegals go in there for childbirths (Taking advantage of our hospitality in making everyone born here a citizen), but many also go in there for the common cold and other non-emergencies.
Bringing down our school system, making those who actually can SPEAK ENGLISH wait for the Mexicans to catch up.
Lowering housing prices by dirtying up neighborhoods.
Causing thousands of fatalities and billions of dollars worth of damage a year by forming Mexican gangs.
Breaking into a Gamestop where my friend was going to pre-order Halo 3 and stealing EVERY COPY of Halo 3 (A personal issue, I know, and they were caught, by the way).
Going by our houses all night, blaring Mariachi music out their car windows (Another personal issue, I know).
Raising our taxes by taking advantage of our services.
Closing down the only good stores still around us and replacing them with giant Mexican supermarkets that use up all the power, lower housing values, and play more Mariachi music.
Creating REALLY stupid court cases, saying that the Police were using "Excessive Force" when protecting the peace by breaking up pro-illegal-immigration marches.
Somehow managing to elect a corrupt mayor in LA who PROMOTED Mexicans moving in illegally.
Somehow managing to arrest 2 boarder patrol agents for shutting down an illegal immigration ring.
Did I mention illegals don't pay a penny in taxes?
Making more and more people flee to Australia.So basically you just hate reckless drivers, injured people, poor students, slops, criminals, more criminals, noise, consumers, businesses, protesters, voters, police, non-tax payers, and emigrants?

Just saying you hate mexicans who don't have legit immigration papers sounds a bit anti-semitic. If they any of those people you described, or the majority of them weren't illegal immigrants, but were african americans, or some other minority group would you feel the same way about that entire minority group? Your statement sounds exactly the same as those that were used by whom were pro-jim crow before the 1960's, just replace "illegal immigrants" with "Blacks" and "Miriachi music" with "rap " (wait rap came out in 1970's but thats besides the point).

Assuming your not racist, in contrary to what your tone implies, I would guess not. So why hate the entire minority group of mexicans just based on their papers? Would it make a difference to you if they were legal? Or would you move on to some other minority group category to place them all in and say you hate that?

[Texrat]

it has taught me to HATE illegal immigration. Not only are they stealing our jobs

I'll just tackle this one fallacy.

They aren't taking your jobs. They are taking the jobs left in the vacuum created by Americans abandoning farms and base labor for college and upscale white collar careers. Do YOU want to pick okra in stinking fields for minimum wage in 100 degree heat with no benefits?

Neither do other Americans anymore.

Oh what the heck, one more fallacy busted: illegal immigrants pay plenty in state taxes. And whether you understand it or not, you reap a net benefit from their labor. That's why business and government allow the status quo to persist. It's the closest thing to slave labor they can get.

[rossmum]

Don't tempt us Americans, we'll go all Normandy on your ass.
I'd like to see you try. You wouldn't be crossing a few miles of the English Channel, and you wouldn't be facing disorganised groups of skilled troops who were given orders NOT to counterattack until their leader caught wind of it a day late.

Plus, as terrible as our Navy's ships may be, our army is better trained, better equipped, and more organised.

Plus also, we have the SAS.

[Jay2645]

So basically you just hate reckless drivers, Yep injured people, Ones who use the emergency rooms because they HAVE to treat ANYONE, letting people who actually have serious injuries die poor students, Ones that refuse to learn English, yes slops, Neat Freak criminals, Who doesn't? more criminals, Like I said, who doesn't? noise, When it's played at 12 AM, yes consumers, Where did I say that? businesses, Once again, where did I say that? protesters, Ones whose cause doesn't even make any sense, CLEAN UP YOUR OWN COUNTRY, DON'T COME HERE! voters, Illegals can't vote. police, No, I'm FOR the police. Read, FFS. non-tax payers, When the rest of us are, yes and illegal emigrants?

Just saying you hate mexicans who don't have legit immigration papers sounds a bit anti-semitic. If they any of those people you described, or the majority of them weren't illegal immigrants, but were african americans, or some other minority group would you feel the same way about that entire minority group?
Well, they wouldn't be breaking any laws, and they would be paying taxes.
Your statement sounds exactly the same as those that were used by whom were pro-jim crow before the 1960's, just replace "illegal immigrants" with "Blacks" and "Miriachi music" with "rap " (wait rap came out in 1970's but thats besides the point).
Jim Crow laws were made to make up for Slavery being illegal, my statement was made to point out that these people broke the law, and seem to continue to pass down their law-breaking ways to their kids.

Assuming your not racist, in contrary to what your tone implies, I would guess not. So why hate the entire minority group of mexicans just based on their papers?
The Mexican group is actually a majority in Southwest America. And I don't hate all of them, just the ones without papers.
Would it make a difference to you if they were legal?
Yes.
Or would you move on to some other minority group category to place them all in and say you hate that?
Nope. As long as that other minority group is speaking the language, paying taxes, and obeying the laws.

I had a feeling that was going to stir up some controversy.
I'm not racist against Mexicans, I'm simply fed up with the fact that few actually know English. When you've had to deal with it all your life, then something has to give eventually.
My stance:
Learn English, get your papers, then come here LEGALLY, and we'll be fine.

You know it's bad when whenever you walk around campus, people scream at you "NAPOLEON DYNAMITE!" just because you're white (And the only white person on campus), and people generally avoid you because your skin color sets you apart from everyone else.

[Dr Nick]

You know it's bad when whenever you walk around campus, people scream at you "NAPOLEON DYNAMITE!" just because you're white (And the only white person on campus), and people generally avoid you because your skin color sets you apart from everyone else.

Simple fix, tell them to fuck off.

[n00b1n8R]

Of course Bush is torturing people, every country ever has.

I don't agree with that.

but anyways, i'm not saying "let them come and then we let them do w/e they want lol. obviously were good at catching them, so once we do, instead of sticking them in detention for years, we give them some money to get them on their feet, then send them out to get a job. if they don't have a job in a certain time they are then deported back to where they came.

saves on aus tax dollars and adds people to the work force = win for aus.

[Jay2645]

Simple fix, tell them to fuck off.
Yelling "FUCK OFF!" hundreds of times a day would land me in trouble with security, as well as teachers.

And it would make my voice hoarse, but that's beside the point.

Also, every great community, at some point, has had slaves. And at some point, they have all tortured people.

If we were good at catching illegals, we wouldn't have this problem in SoCal, would we? They have corrupted the Southwest's government so badly that people are GETTING ARRESTED for catching illegals, or keeping the peace when a crowd begins to riot.

[jahrain]

I had a feeling that was going to stir up some controversy.
I'm not racist against Mexicans, I'm simply fed up with the fact that few actually know English. When you've had to deal with it all your life, then something has to give eventually.
My stance:
Learn English, get your papers, then come here LEGALLY, and we'll be fine.

You know it's bad when whenever you walk around campus, people scream at you "NAPOLEON DYNAMITE!" just because you're white (And the only white person on campus), and people generally avoid you because your skin color sets you apart from everyone else.Next time, reply outside of the quote, not inside if you want me to respond...

Just so you know, there are lots of people who are legal citizens of the US that don't pay taxes, nor speak very good english. So you basically are being antisemitic against illegal immigrants because they don't pay taxes, or speak good english when really you are just angry at anyone who doesn't pay taxes or speak another language than you (you could leave the illegal immigrant part out of that statement). Actually, we have yet to pass a law requiring everyone to pay income tax because as of now, no such law is in effect.

Also, you seem to just be using the term that they are "illegal" as a scapegoat. What would you have to say if a bill is passed making every illegal immigrant currently in the US a full US legal citizen? Actually, allot of the problems, other than your personal issues would be solved if this happened. They would have every obligation as a legal citizen.

Also, I know what its like to be the only black person on a school campus and having various slurs like (hey, wad-up ganster, yo!) screamed at you from various white kids because of that, so I understand where your viewpoint is coming from. But what isn't the issue for you is illegal immigration. Don't forget, Americans stole this land from the Native Americans and slaughted them off. The Europeans were too lazy to fix the problems in their own countries which is why they invaded this country and stole it away from the natives. We don't deserve to be here any more than any mexicans who hopped the boarder, so get that through your head before thinking that they are the invaders.

[Bodzilla]

I don't agree with that.

but anyways, i'm not saying "let them come and then we let them do w/e they want lol. obviously were good at catching them, so once we do, instead of sticking them in detention for years, we give them some money to get them on their feet, then send them out to get a job. if they don't have a job in a certain time they are then deported back to where they came.

saves on aus tax dollars and adds people to the work force = win for aus.
I have to admit that is a very intresting theory you have there.

i dont think it would be practical tho.

[n00b1n8R]

neither is keeping them in detention for years then just deporting them anyway. that way atleast gives more oppertunity for them to contribute to australia.

[Texrat]

IYou know it's bad when whenever you walk around campus, people scream at you "NAPOLEON DYNAMITE!" just because you're white (And the only white person on campus), and people generally avoid you because your skin color sets you apart from everyone else.

Wow, a white person getting to experience the minority viewpoint. :XD:


Also, every great community, at some point, has had slaves. And at some point, they have all tortured people.

Then they weren't a "great" community.

[Texrat]

Back on topic, Jimmy Carter chimes in:



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States tortures prisoners in violation of international law, former President Carter said Wednesday.

"I don't think it. I know it," Carter told CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
"Our country for the first time in my life time has abandoned the basic principle of human rights," Carter said. "We've said that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to those people in Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo, and we've said we can torture prisoners and deprive them of an accusation of a crime to which they are accused."
Carter also said President Bush creates his own definition of human rights.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/10/carter.torture/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

I'll believe Carter any day over Bush.

[Emmzee]

Carter? But he said he saw a UFO.

Which means he's not to be trusted.

[Texrat]

I saw UFOs, so I don't accept your... logic.

[Emmzee]

I saw UFOs, so I don't accept your... logic.
My logic is flawless, it is you that is flawed. Eight weeks in my patent-pending Logicatorium© will having you thinking...logically.

[Texrat]

My logic is flawless, it is you that is flawed. Eight weeks in my patent-pending Logicatorium© will having you thinking...logically.

Ok. Cost?

[Bodzilla]

Ok. Cost?
Belief in creationism and/or your soul.