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Zeph
February 3rd, 2007, 09:56 PM
I found an article on Driver Heaven forums and it really pointed out a lot of the not soo easily seen things that have happened with Vista itself. Yeah, this is going to be a long post, but I hope you read. +rep is welcome ^_^.

source: http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/02/rob_enderle_on_vista_launch/


Now it may actually be kind of smart to do this with a Microsoft OS launch. The biggest problems with upgrades and migrations to a new OS occur in the first three months and things get vastly better after that as fixes are created for OS and application migration issues and more and more people are embraced by these fixes. If you realize that something like a billion PCs run some version of Windows, then, say even a 10% initial migration would be 100 million folks or 2.5 times Apple's estimated entire installed base of Macs. If only 1% of those folks had problems, and typically it will be much more than this, you would have 1 million people in dire need of help and there is no support organization or combination on the planet that could handle that kind of load over a short period of time.

...If Vista eases into the market, then the techies get it first and they, by nature, become part of the virtual support organization that updates to both Vista and the applications that run on it. In effect, the percentage of problems drops and the support capability of the market improves resulting in a sharp decrease of really upset people who can't get this product to work....

I didn't see it directly, but I knew there was definitely something awry with Vista missing the holiday season. Especially with the nickname of M$ given to Microsoft by people who don't really understand the company and the market it operates in. Technical support for a company is a ridiculously expensive service. You always have to have enough people on hand to handle expected demand of the service, otherwise it hurts the company in the long run as people decide to use substitue goods. This is where the brilliance of the upgrade coupons come to play. If you've gotten one, you've noticed that it can take 6-8 weeks for your actual upgrade to be shipped. This is basically crowd control at work. The enthusiasts will be the first to upgrade. They'll also be the ones to find more serious flaws and as the article said, serve as a third party to tech support. Once the coupons starting to ship a couple of weeks after launch, the common users are most likely to call in for support in the initial stages of their upgrade as they're having problems getting things to actually work. Demand for technical support wont accumulate as people with problems are most likely to be able to have all issues resolved by the time another person who has recently upgraded through a coupon has reason to call for support. Controlling the amount of people in need calling in for support for the common problems associated with upgrading an OS is a great strategy and should be noted dearly.


Typically there are a couple of rules to moving to a new major OS release. The first is the migration gets much better, as I've noted, after the first three months because more of the third party applications have both migrated and been patched and because the drivers are more mature (both more reliable and better tuned).

...Is it worth it? That depends on you, I do identify with the PC guy in Apple's ads and it sure was worth it for me. But there is no need to rush, it isn't going anyplace. Some of us just like to get places first.

Drivers, applications, familiarity, and market share. As time goes on, all provide a better and better user experience. That's not to say getting Vista up and going on day 1 is a bad experience, but it will show you when Vista dedicated apps are probably going to start becoming mainstream. I think more than half, if not all, expected H2V to be released shortly after Vista itself. I really didn't think about drivers and a user-base back then, but meh, I wouldn't mind being the only person having H2V Jan 30, 2007. Microsoft would have, though.


We're.... >_>, most people here, are still sitting around wondering when Halo 2 Vista will be released. I, myself, am looking forward to what should be a June/July release. How did I come up with this? I looked at Vista as a whole market and logistics subject. The last upgrade coupons for Vista will, at the latest, reach end-user homes the last week of May. Assuming Microsoft is using the above mentioned strategy for their product placement on the whole, aside from Office which I consider a vital exception, the culmination of 4Q06 sales of Vista will be finalized just as June starts up.

So what has happened from February to June? I'd have to say drivers and applications. nVidia might have quelled the people putting up a class action lawsuit over them by releasing stable drivers that work properly. AMD will have spat out the R6xx series of video cards with their respective drivers and have a decent slew of DX10 cards with a month or two of market saturation with driver improvements to spare. Creative might have actually started doing work during the day to produce working drivers for their X-Fi and Audigy 4 sound cards. Most important, the Vista debug team will have put out multiple patches and updates for the things you can't catch in a debug lab or limited RC. So what does that mean? Less customer support dedicated to things that aren't related to Vista, such as drivers! Come on, dont tell me you think noobs don't complain to MS whenever their video games crash...

So with working drivers, a larger userbase, experienced users, tech support suicide rates dropping, and a solid infrastructure formed, what do you think would be a good idea to do? Why not release some games that require all that, such as Halo 2 Vista? It's a great time for a game release. It's summer, people are looking for something to do, as they have plenty of time to populate servers and more money is spent in summer on luxury items than any other time of the year besides the winter holidays. I'm going to make a few predictiions, and I bet I'll be pretty close:

Middle to late February: Halo 2 Vista update containing information about content. Probably 90% old stuff and 10% new. Just a 'because we care' update.

Mid-March: Weekly update speaking of H2V information being released within the week.

1-6 days later: Media channels releasing 'H2V information reguarding release, required specs, and details about Live Anywhere.

Next weekly update from bungie: Confirmation or denial of H2V information about release, required specs, and LA info.

Late-April/Early-May: Weekly updates about the H2EK talking about basic information and showing off some of the test cases used to test the EK before it went Gold.

June/July: Release.

Limited
February 3rd, 2007, 10:27 PM
Yes, but big word here being "might"

Things will be smoothed out with vista, the question is how much.

By the time h2vista comes out vista will have had long enough time to be patched and working fully so yeah thats good side of june release. But bad side is we have to wait :(

TheGhost
February 5th, 2007, 11:01 PM
How soon before a product launch are release dates typically finalized? It'd seem that in order to have a June release date it should be officially announced in March or April.

Limited
February 6th, 2007, 04:38 AM
Sadly for technology, there is no real finalization. Only way to tell its out is the day before/ the actual day its released lol.

Things in past have been postponed like a week before release date.

Software though, after its burned onto a disk company must get pissed if they had to recall them lol

m13120
February 6th, 2007, 05:42 PM
Watch them delay H2V for like 2 months after we expect it to be released in June/July.

Ninja
February 6th, 2007, 07:57 PM
well i went into ebgames a few days ago and they had a windows vista game stand set up with some of the games and there was a halo 2 case so i ask the guy and he told me it will be in stores June 1st. well that what i heard lol

dzzzzzzzzzzzz
February 8th, 2007, 10:34 AM
lol if the game was released in June/July it would loose them a lot of potential customers as it is too close to the release date of halo3 (yes I am one of the many people that will be buyin h2v and h3, anyway..)

Several months ago the hired gun team stated that they have finished making the game and are awaiting the release of windows vista; now they are waiting for windows live to go .. live.. as h2v uses this

Was browsing the microsoft games site and for halo2 vista it says the release date is Spring which is when windows live goes live to..

http://www.microsoft.com/games/pc/halo2.aspx

Varmint260
February 8th, 2007, 06:34 PM
I won't be buying Halo 3 anyways, as it is unlikely that it'll be on PC until a couple years after it's released on XBox. So, no matter how long it takes to get Halo2Vista, the H3 release won't affect me, or likely any other PC-only-no-console gamers.

TomClancy
February 10th, 2007, 07:55 PM
^ Varmint thats just like me, I have no console except the sucky PS2 >_>.

Mr Buckshot
February 10th, 2007, 09:51 PM
I used to support H2V's Vista exclusivity, but I don't think it's justified anymore. H2V will support, but not take advantage of DX10. Microsoft says that the Live Anywhere thing is exclusive to Vista, but we PC gamers do not need that garbage, because we do things differently from console gamers.

About drivers and related stuff, it doesn't matter for H2V. Games with better graphics run well on XP. If H2V received a complete DX10 makeover, I'd gladly embrace its Vista exclusivity, but from the looks of it, running H2V on XP is no different from Vista, and so Vista exclusivity is unjust.

w/e, I already have Windows Vista on one hard drive, so I shouldn't complain, but many of my friends don't have it yet, so they can't borrow my copy of H2V to play.

Zeph
February 10th, 2007, 11:34 PM
I used to support H2V's Vista exclusivity, but I don't think it's justified anymore. H2V will support, but not take advantage of DX10. Microsoft says that the Live Anywhere thing is exclusive to Vista, but we PC gamers do not need that garbage, because we do things differently from console gamers.

About drivers and related stuff, it doesn't matter for H2V. Games with better graphics run well on XP. If H2V received a complete DX10 makeover, I'd gladly embrace its Vista exclusivity, but from the looks of it, running H2V on XP is no different from Vista, and so Vista exclusivity is unjust.

w/e, I already have Windows Vista on one hard drive, so I shouldn't complain, but many of my friends don't have it yet, so they can't borrow my copy of H2V to play.

Also think of it from the developers standpoint. The biggest complaints from Halo PC/CE came from graphical issues. With a console studio used to standards, it makes perfect sense. I personally am happy it's Vista only, as you wont have people complaining about bad graphics. It also drastically reduces the snipping you'd have to do to a custom level to get it running across the hardware spectrum.

And of course, there's my favorite reason: it's not your decision so accept it, get used to it, and get over it.

Reaper Man
February 11th, 2007, 03:16 AM
Why does everybody always forget the fact that Vista is a 64-Bit OS, H2V may be optimised to take advantage of 64-Bit processors.

someone
February 11th, 2007, 11:39 AM
It will be optimized for 64-bit and dual core processors I think. And Vista editions are 32-bit or 64-bit.

Zeph
February 11th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Why does everybody always forget the fact that Vista is a 64-Bit OS, H2V may be optimised to take advantage of 64-Bit processors.


Funny, it running on my Northwood and come from another 32-bit processor.

TheGhost
February 12th, 2007, 09:56 PM
I heard Vista was actually slower on 64-bit systems, or that it didn't have the performance boost it should have, or something like that.

TomClancy
February 13th, 2007, 10:56 AM
I heard Vista was actually slower on 64-bit systems, or that it didn't have the performance boost it should have, or something like that.

I'm sure It's like that because it was released just now, and kind of early, they didn't get to flesh out the features enough. So I'm guessing in SP2 it will be much better,

Zeph
February 13th, 2007, 01:47 PM
I heard Vista was actually slower on 64-bit systems, or that it didn't have the performance boost it should have, or something like that.

64 bit OS operations are really only beneficial when adressing large volumes of memory (more than 3GB methinks) and executing specific functions in todays world, so yeah, it wouldn't surprise me.

Varmint260
February 14th, 2007, 10:12 PM
So, if someone got the 32bit version of Vista and a 32 bit processor, for example, then there SHOULD be no issues running H2V with, say, only a couple gigs of RAM?

Zeph
February 15th, 2007, 11:08 AM
When I say adressing large amounts of memory, I mean things like 3GB+ archives or thousand layer 2160p photoshop files, not hundreds of apps totalling up that memory. Nothing the typical consumer will be needing for about five to ten years at the earliest.

Varmint260
February 19th, 2007, 12:48 AM
When I say adressing large amounts of memory, I mean things like 3GB+ archives or thousand layer 2160p photoshop files, not hundreds of apps totalling up that memory. Nothing the typical consumer will be needing for about five to ten years at the earliest.

Exactly what I was hoping to hear. Thanks! Actually, I heard from... oh heck, I can't even remember who... but SOMEONE who said you don't get much difference between 64bit and 32bit unless you're using upwards of 10gb of RAM. I thought that sounded odd.

Thanks Zeph!

[MT]Slayer
February 19th, 2007, 04:36 PM
i think i have a 32 bit computer (Dell Dimension B110/1100 w/e). My dad is getting, i think a 64 bit Vista Ultimate, but i protest against that! My dad has a crappy, computer called "Empowered" or something like that, its like a modern comp, until I accidentally* messed it up. Besides, I think Halo 2 Vista will run just fine on my computer.

Chewy Gumball
February 21st, 2007, 04:06 PM
32 bit processors can only use a max of 4gb of ram directly. 64bit processors can use 16 exabytes (32 powers of 2 more) directly, however companies limit it to like 16gb or something more reasonable for today's needs. So it would be upward of 4gb, not 10.

Until programs are written to use the extra power of 64bit, they will not have a useful performance gain. If you multi task it will be faster, but dual cores can do that too (and better). The majority of software developed pre-vista will not run better, but things that use lots of memory will see a sizable gain. Photoshop, wmm, Vegas, rendering in Max or Maya, etc. This could also include games in the near future very easily. Also, now that companies see people buying 64bit processors, and that vista is 64bit, the amount of programs that will utilize 64bit will increase. Games could gain a huge performance boost above dx10's already sizable boost if they used 64bit processing effectively. I say give it a year and you will see 64bit processors on the recommended specs for some games.

Personally, If you are building a computer, 64bit processors aren't really more expensive, and there are advantages to them. You don't need them though. Its not like you couldn't use anything without them.

MereCatfish
February 22nd, 2007, 11:11 AM
Watch them delay H2V for like 2 months after we expect it to be released in June/July.

How on earth can they delay something that has never had a release date?

[MT]Slayer
February 23rd, 2007, 12:14 PM
i wish there is an Alldev (application, like the one for halo ce) for halo 2 vista. Is putting AI into maps available in Halo 2 Vista? If that's possible, then thats sweet. like tapping ~ and then: cheat_infinite_ammo (1,0) boom, and then u have dual SMGs with infinite ammo or any other battery based weapon, including the energy sword, and maybe cheat_deathless_Player (1,0) then u won't die, (hunters on out skirts =p) I wish someone could make "AlldevHalo2PC" for Halo 2 Vista. That would be pretty fun.

=EP_Blash
March 4th, 2007, 06:43 AM
I found an article on Driver Heaven forums and it really pointed out a lot of the not soo easily seen things that have happened with Vista itself. Yeah, this is going to be a long post, but I hope you read. +rep is welcome ^_^.

source: http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/02/rob_enderle_on_vista_launch/



I didn't see it directly, but I knew there was definitely something awry with Vista missing the holiday season. Especially with the nickname of M$ given to Microsoft by people who don't really understand the company and the market it operates in. Technical support for a company is a ridiculously expensive service. You always have to have enough people on hand to handle expected demand of the service, otherwise it hurts the company in the long run as people decide to use substitue goods. This is where the brilliance of the upgrade coupons come to play. If you've gotten one, you've noticed that it can take 6-8 weeks for your actual upgrade to be shipped. This is basically crowd control at work. The enthusiasts will be the first to upgrade. They'll also be the ones to find more serious flaws and as the article said, serve as a third party to tech support. Once the coupons starting to ship a couple of weeks after launch, the common users are most likely to call in for support in the initial stages of their upgrade as they're having problems getting things to actually work. Demand for technical support wont accumulate as people with problems are most likely to be able to have all issues resolved by the time another person who has recently upgraded through a coupon has reason to call for support. Controlling the amount of people in need calling in for support for the common problems associated with upgrading an OS is a great strategy and should be noted dearly.



Drivers, applications, familiarity, and market share. As time goes on, all provide a better and better user experience. That's not to say getting Vista up and going on day 1 is a bad experience, but it will show you when Vista dedicated apps are probably going to start becoming mainstream. I think more than half, if not all, expected H2V to be released shortly after Vista itself. I really didn't think about drivers and a user-base back then, but meh, I wouldn't mind being the only person having H2V Jan 30, 2007. Microsoft would have, though.


We're.... >_>, most people here, are still sitting around wondering when Halo 2 Vista will be released. I, myself, am looking forward to what should be a June/July release. How did I come up with this? I looked at Vista as a whole market and logistics subject. The last upgrade coupons for Vista will, at the latest, reach end-user homes the last week of May. Assuming Microsoft is using the above mentioned strategy for their product placement on the whole, aside from Office which I consider a vital exception, the culmination of 4Q06 sales of Vista will be finalized just as June starts up.

So what has happened from February to June? I'd have to say drivers and applications. nVidia might have quelled the people putting up a class action lawsuit over them by releasing stable drivers that work properly. AMD will have spat out the R6xx series of video cards with their respective drivers and have a decent slew of DX10 cards with a month or two of market saturation with driver improvements to spare. Creative might have actually started doing work during the day to produce working drivers for their X-Fi and Audigy 4 sound cards. Most important, the Vista debug team will have put out multiple patches and updates for the things you can't catch in a debug lab or limited RC. So what does that mean? Less customer support dedicated to things that aren't related to Vista, such as drivers! Come on, dont tell me you think noobs don't complain to MS whenever their video games crash...

So with working drivers, a larger userbase, experienced users, tech support suicide rates dropping, and a solid infrastructure formed, what do you think would be a good idea to do? Why not release some games that require all that, such as Halo 2 Vista? It's a great time for a game release. It's summer, people are looking for something to do, as they have plenty of time to populate servers and more money is spent in summer on luxury items than any other time of the year besides the winter holidays. I'm going to make a few predictiions, and I bet I'll be pretty close:

Middle to late February: Halo 2 Vista update containing information about content. Probably 90% old stuff and 10% new. Just a 'because we care' update.

Mid-March: Weekly update speaking of H2V information being released within the week.

1-6 days later: Media channels releasing 'H2V information reguarding release, required specs, and details about Live Anywhere.

Next weekly update from bungie: Confirmation or denial of H2V information about release, required specs, and LA info.

Late-April/Early-May: Weekly updates about the H2EK talking about basic information and showing off some of the test cases used to test the EK before it went Gold.

June/July: Release.
that sounds about right, although i would think it would be a bit earlier. First, most people are not going to get Vista off of the coupon upgrade i dont think. Second, if you're gonna tie it that way, then u have a LOT of people with brand new Vista machines by April or so who are gonna luck out on H2V until June/July.

about the timeline: i figured ud be off a bit, obviously they didn't release anything in February. My revised timeline:

mid-April: BIG info release, screenshots, etc on all the old stuff. Includes system reqs, etc.
late-April: info release on the new stuff, i.e. Live Anywhere - which, incidentally, will be flagshipped or w/e the term is with H2V
early to mid May: Info about the modding aspects of H2V, goes gold
mid to early May: release

summer release sounds right but not late June or july imo.

+repped for good analysis though :)

Zeph
March 4th, 2007, 08:58 AM
yeah, my predictions on their updates on H2V are based on how they always try to hype up new bungie things (halo 2, trailers, new maps, the commercial, etc.). I can only guess they aren't going to do much about H2V because they dont want to get in depth about the EK, due to the noobs, they feel they've allready gone over it, or they dont want to take away from their 360 work.

Has been shot down, pretty much though. :\.

Dragonpurr
March 4th, 2007, 12:56 PM
game spot says april 24th

Sunray
March 4th, 2007, 03:47 PM
As bungie said:
Unless you hear it from us, its not true.