119th update

I suppose in a biased and scripted test like that, yes. But snipers don't run around with their smgs (I don't even equip mine), spies don't run around outside of disguise, and medic's needleguns are inaccurate and difficult to use in general due to bullet drop. Plus theres the factor of burn damage. Once someones on fire, they take 3(or 6, can't remember if their damaged once or twice per second) damage per second for 6 seconds after the pyro stops roasting them. Plus with airblasting and lets not forget the shotgun, axtinguisher, and flaregun, all of which are excellent for finishing off a burnt enemy, the pyro is still the kingpin of the close range classes.

Now, this argument becomes completely invalidated if the pyro uses the backburner, which deals the same damage as it did pre-nerf, as well as crits from behind.

E: Having just played for a bit (keep in mind that I had a total of 13 minutes as pyro beforehand) I was able to get 4 kills per life as a pyro using the flamethrower, and the shotgun for underwater fighting. I just don't think this is an issue. Also I noticed that the pyro has 175 health. More than I thought he had.

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Originally Posted by ICEE

Now, this argument becomes completely invalidated if the pyro uses the backburner, which deals the same damage as it did pre-nerf, as well as crits from behind.

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It actually does 4% LESS damage than it did before.

This is because they lowered the damage by 20%, and then re-added 20%..... it creates a discrepancy.... had they wanted to make it back to normal they would've given it a 25% boost.

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Originally Posted by ICEE

Plus theres the factor of burn damage. Once someones on fire, they take 3(or 6, can't remember if their damaged once or twice per second) damage per second for 6 seconds after the pyro stops roasting them.

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That means that unless they get to a medkit or use one of the six available counters for afterburn, they're going to take a whopping 36 damage. You and I both know that's fucking weak.

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Originally Posted by ICEE

E: Having just played for a bit (keep in mind that I had a total of 13 minutes as pyro beforehand) I was able to get 4 kills per life as a pyro using the flamethrower, and the shotgun for underwater fighting. I just don't think this is an issue. Also I noticed that the pyro has 175 health. More than I thought he had.

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How about you main as a Pyro for about 120 hours and then talk to me about how "balanced" this change is.

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Originally Posted by Aerowyn

That means that unless they get to a medkit or use one of the six available counters for afterburn, they're going to take a whopping 36 damage. You and I both know that's fucking weak.

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36 burn damage, plus the amount of damage the actual fire did. if you just clicked once with the flamethrower and ignited them before leaving them be, they'll probably be fine. But if you hold the fire on them for even a moment, you're probably going to kill them. Citing the chart you linked to, at point blank the pyro can do 122 damage per second with fire alone, right? well the burn- counter starts the second their ignited, so you're actually going to do 125 damage, just the right amount of damage to kill a low hp class. If their a higher class.. lets say the soldier, you burn them for slightly over a second and they will die from the fire. OR, you burn them for a moment, then when they locate you back up and shoot them with your shotgun, you'll kill them. Everything is relative to the situation.

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Originally Posted by Aerowyn

How about you main as a Pyro for about 120 hours and then talk to me about how "balanced" this change is.

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Impossible, seeing as I hadn't played long enough during this expired period of glorious balance that you so long for, I have no reference of what true balance is to compare to.

The only thing I think pyros are underpowered against are sword/shield demomen. (fire defense from a wooden shield my ass.) Hell, its even possible to knock out a lvl 3 sentry before it kills you if you do it right.

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Originally Posted by ICEE

36 burn damage, plus the amount of damage the actual fire did. if you just clicked once with the flamethrower and ignited them before leaving them be, they'll probably be fine. But if you hold the fire on them for even a moment, you're probably going to kill them. Citing the chart you linked to, at point blank the pyro can do 122 damage per second with fire alone, right? well the burn- counter starts the second their ignited, so you're actually going to do 125 damage, just the right amount of damage to kill a low hp class. If their a higher class.. lets say the soldier, you burn them for slightly over a second and they will die from the fire. OR, you burn them for a moment, then when they locate you back up and shoot them with your shotgun, you'll kill them. Everything is relative to the situation.

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You realize that sure, a pyro could do 122 damage per second and take someone out.... but you're failing to factor in that that figure is based on if you were absolutely point blank with 100% accuracy and every particle hit the enemy, which would mean he would need to be pretty much immobile. Now factor in the damage cone the pyro has, where there is damage falloff depending on how far away you are from the enemy, and then factor in that your enemy is going to be running around. And also factor in that you need to get CLOSE to do damage, and the enemy you're going after probably has team members nearby who are going to be shooting at you while you're spewing flames at ONE person.

They've turned being an offensive pyro into suicide.

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Originally Posted by ICEE

The only thing I think pyros are underpowered against are sword/shield demomen. (fire defense from a wooden shield my ass.)

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Actually, sword/shield demos are easy to deal with. They want to rush at you with the sword, so if you keep burning them and airblasting them backwards while backpedaling, they can't touch you.

I've aggravated many sword demos that way :)

I always get killed, their melee attack has too much range for me.

Also I don't think the pyro's damage cone is incredibly different from the point blank number at any short range. If the tip of your flametounge is whats hitting them, you may as well be using the shotgun. If you've got a good line on them, theyll be dead in a second or less. This is my experience both as the pyro and the target.

I'm going scout/engineer in the meantime...

:( being a pyro just sucks too hardcore right now.

I'm going to be engineering like nobodies business when the engineer update comes out. Unless it makes me mad. then im going to be ... expanding my boundaries.... maybe I'll try heavy...

I severely worry about the Engineer update. There is always the trend that when a class-specific update comes out, everyone wants to play that class.

It is going to be Turtle Fortress 2 for about 3 weeks after the update goes live. Meanwhile, career spies and demoman jizz their pants.

depends on what the update is. If its something that helps the engineer take a more offensive stance, maybe not. I mean, look at the demoman update. Totally changed the way people use him. Could happen for engie too

Demoman weapons were terrible and Scottish Resistance is useless compared to stock stickybomb launcher

Soldier weapons are decent though, even though I stick with regular rocket launcher most of the time