Microsoft bundling IE with windows deemed illegal by EU (IBM, Adobe agree)

lol.

It seems the EU has run out of cash, and needs to sue Microsoft for money.

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Originally Posted by The European Committee for Interoperable Systems (ECIS)

This is an important case to ensure that browsers can compete on the merits and that consumers have a true choice in the software they use to access the internet. Despite consistently lower user satisfaction ratings for IE, Microsoft browser maintains its dominant position because of illegal bundling with Windows. Smaller, more innovative browser developers need a level playing field to have a fair chance. That is why there is such broad support for the Commission's preliminary findings of abuse.

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Maybe Microsoft should unbundle IE from Windows and sell it to the EU without a web browser, so people can choose for themselves :rolleyes:. Users aren't forced to solely use IE, except for the one or two webpages they need to visit in order to download Firefox. It's like being given a free car when you arrive in at internet land. It might be shit but hell it's a free car. Just because you don't know about other free ones that you can get after a short drive doesn't mean that internet land should be shot in the foot for offering the free car in the first place :suicide:.

I can't see any reason why they're so up in arms about it either, it's not like Opera or Mozilla would benefit from having their free software pre-installed.

Just because so many people are frustrated with IE doesn't mean that the second they use a different browser all their problems will vanish - doesn't it make a bit of sense that IE has such a low approval rating because there are so many computer illiterate people on the internet that don't realise alternatives exist? And just because they disapprove of one doesn't mean that they will suddenly know how to put links on their links bar in another. If Microsoft did give consumers three options, would they know the difference between Firefox, Opera and IE just by their names? Wouldn't they pick IE anyway because it's the only one out of the three that explores the internet??? Most computer illiterate people I know see IE as a window to the internet - changing the frame of the window won't make them enjoy looking through it any more than they already do.

Can't help but ask - why isn't Apple up on the firing line for this too, aren't they also illegally forcingusers to use Safari on their macs?


I guess it doesn't help that the head of this ECIS works for Opera.


I know I wouldn't normally make a thread (about this), but it really pisses me off. Also note that I don't read the entire internet every day so only stumbled apon this on neowin today (oh lord it's more than one day old).
[/rant]

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Originally Posted by Timo

Can't help but ask - why isn't Apple up on the firing line for this too, aren't they also illegally forcing users to use Safari on their macs & ipods?

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fty http://kornnersoftware.com/trillian/da_real_timo.gif

They did the same thing with windows media player, you can get the xp-N here (don't know for vista) and it does not have wmp installed.

ECIS people must be really stupid, no one is forcing you to use it, you can insall the program best suited for you.

ahahhahaahhaha

god damn they are so dumb

I'm kinda glad they do bundle IE with Windows. It'd be a bit difficult to go find and download a new browser if you don't have a browser in the first place to go and find it with.

Think of the number of new users yelling "HOW DO I GET ON THE INTERNET?!"

As if there weren't enough people asking that anyway.

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Originally Posted by Syuusuke

Think of the number of new users yelling "HOW DO I GET ON THE INTERNET?!"

As if there weren't enough people asking that anyway.

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I think if microsoft removed internet explorer, OEM's would start installing the browers anyways, its not as though they don't install enough junkware as it is with new computers.

What about iTunes? That comes bundled on every clean installation of OS X too.

This is so petty and downright stupid it's not funny. Sums up our society pretty well, I guess.

This is so dumb. I guess this is why we can't have nice things like the internet.

I can't wait till the EU realizes that without IE on their new PC's, they won't be able to get any other browsers.

Then I will lol.

I was talking about this last month with my tech teacher, a selection of browsers on install would be the best option anyway.

@sdavis?

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Originally Posted by Rook

@sdavis?

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I believe that ever since the fall of Netscape, the only way to get a Web Browser now is either to use one bundled with your OS, or to use a browser you already have to get another one.

If Microsoft were to stop bundling IE with Windows, then no one would be able to get a web browser (unless they had a friend with a browser, the files to install it, and a flash drive).

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Originally Posted by sdavis117

I believe that ever since the fall of Netscape, the only way to get a Web Browser now is either to use one bundled with your OS, or to use a browser you already have to get another one.

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Yeah it is for now, but by unbundaling IE I meant when you do a clean install of an operating system you could choose which browser to install.. or when you buy a computer.

• Internet Explorer
• FireFox
• Opera

etc...

No one mentions Chrome. :(

The whole premise of not providing an internet access program with an install is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Rook

Yeah it is for now, but by unbundaling IE I meant when you do a clean install of an operating system you could choose which browser to install.. or when you buy a computer.

• Internet Explorer
• FireFox
• Opera

etc...

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There are hundreds of Web Browsers, like Octopus and Banana and other obscure ones. To follow the ECIS's logic, you would have to put ALL of them on to every new PC/Windows install disc. That is unrealistic, considering that some of these browsers charge money to use them, and Microsoft would not be willing to buy all of them without raising the price for Windows.

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Originally Posted by sdavis117

There are hundreds of Web Browsers, like Octopus and Banana and other obscure ones. To follow the ECIS's logic, you would have to put ALL of them on to every new PC/Windows install disc. That is unrealistic, considering that some of these browsers charge money to use them, and Microsoft would not be willing to buy all of them without raising the price for Windows.

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There would be no reason to put all those random browsers on the disc, just the top 5 or something.

Maybe Windows shouldn't even have a GUI because some people might prefer custom ones. :raise:

would be nice if the eurotrash couldn't get online i say.

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Originally Posted by Timo

Can't help but ask - why isn't Apple up on the firing line for this too, aren't they also illegally forcingusers to use Safari on their macs?

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Apple sells hardware... they have more legal rights. You can bundle software with hardware all you want.

Yeah bullshit, I know.

I think that organizations should be putting more effort into forcing Microsoft to make IE follow standards than forcing them to keep IE out of Windows It's annoying as hell trying to make pages that work on both since you have to make custom styles for IE that fix all the broken shit in it's page rendering code.

IE8 is better but it still isn't perfect.

What's the point of having standards if the dominant browser disregards them?

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Originally Posted by Rook

There would be no reason to put all those random browsers on the disc, just the top 5 or something.

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I thought the whole problem was that these people feel IE has an unfair monopoly on internet browsing, since it comes installed with Windows. Adding more selection isn't fixing any problems. If you included the top 5 or so, the developers of browsers that -don't- get included could start causing a fuss.

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Originally Posted by jcap

What about iTunes? That comes bundled on every clean installation of OS X too.

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itunes came bundled with my HP computer thats running vista too.
sue mac, sue microsoft, sue cats, and sue small children.

The issue is old. Windows have already taken necessary steps to fix the dissatisfaction of the IE bundle for their customers.

http://windows7news.com/2009/03/06/e...-in-windows-7/

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Originally Posted by Phopojijo

Apple sells hardware... they have more legal rights. You can bundle software with hardware all you want.

Yeah bullshit, I know.

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Originally Posted by Donut

itunes came bundled with my HP computer thats running vista too.
sue mac, sue microsoft, sue cats, and sue small children.

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Having it put on by the manufacturer is different than selling the software with it bundled.

Apple does sell hardware, yes, but they also sell software. If you go to the store and buy OS X 10.5 Leopard and install it on your computer, it will come with iTunes and Safari and iChat and iMovie and so on...

So why does Microsoft get in trouble for doing the same thing...LESS than what Apple does, even? Fucking bureaucrat fuckwits.

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Originally Posted by jcap

Having it put on by the manufacturer is different than selling the software with it bundled.

Apple does sell hardware, yes, but they also sell software. If you go to the store and buy OS X 10.5 Leopard and install it on your computer, it will come with iTunes and Safari and iChat and iMovie and so on...

So why does Microsoft get in trouble for doing the same thing...LESS than what Apple does, even? Fucking bureaucrat fuckwits.

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Probably their argument is that it must be installed on an Apple PC according to their EULA.

That and lets face it, Apple gets a free ride because they're "the underdog".

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

would be nice if the eurotrash couldn't get online i say.

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whoa hold up there

Wait what the hell is the point of this? I'm going to have to follow other posts when I say: Hahaha this is stupid.

I saw this and laughed. This is one of the stupidest things I've seen. I think EU will go negative after losing this case.lol.

I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is. I mean, it isn't as if people pay for browsers anyway :S? So what if it seems as though some people are being "tricked" into using IE or whatever.

It's a way of reducing Microsoft's "monopoly" over the browser market share, as internet explorer still takes up 66% of the total share.

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Originally Posted by Terry

I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is. I mean, it isn't as if people pay for browsers anyway :S? So what if it seems as though some people are being "tricked" into using IE or whatever.

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"Back in the day" You used to have to go to the computer store and buy a browser disk... that's their plan.

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Originally Posted by Phopojijo

Probably their argument is that it must be installed on an Apple PC according to their EULA.

That and lets face it, Apple gets a free ride because they're "the underdog".

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Good old double standards.

I seriously cannot believe they even considered doing this, let alone went ahead and said it. Surely someone there must have the common sense to realise just how idiotic they're being?

Good. IE sucks.

Doesn't make it any less stupid.

I kinda like the idea of getting browsers via disk, though. Admittedly, a lot of people would simply pirate, but there's still a lot more computer illiterate people than we think. The tech industry might be able to do some good with that money. I wouldn't mind paying an extra $15-$20 fee with a new computer. What do you guys think? And I want you to give it at least some thought, and not dismiss it just because you're used to getting browsers for free.

Yeah because Open Source browsers would really stand a chance there. Sure admittedly Mozilla would be popular enough to get a publisher/have enough money to self-publish... but lets say a new guy has a breakthrough browser... and lets say they want to charge for it...

Not enough money for a CD distribution?

Sucks to be you.

The only reason why we broke free of buying browser CDs was because AOL mailed versions to us and the other ISPs needed to compensate by giving disks of Netscape Navigator or whatever... then Microsoft jumped in with Internet Explorer.

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Originally Posted by Phopojijo

The only reason why we broke free of buying browser CDs was because AOL mailed versions to us and the other ISPs needed to compensate by giving disks of Netscape Navigator or whatever... then Microsoft jumped in with Internet Explorer.

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I remember back then, when internet speed didn't matter and browsing was never heard of being fast.

I like having IE installed, even though I just get on it to go download Firefox. It's a nice way of saying "have this browser, and here's the internet" and stuff.

Exactly... it's hardly as if it blocks the Mozilla site and pops up with "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DOWNLOAD ANOTHER BROWSER" all the time. If you don't want it, all you have to do is browse to the site for your browser of choice and download that. I see absolutely no need for any of this bullshit.

This makes me particularly angry because this is the same fucking bullshit that got the Address toolbar removed from the Taskbar in XP SP3.

What next, they gonna claim that Explorer (not INTERNET Explorer) is also illegal and evil and force everyone to revert to DOS?

e: I really don't see where they're pulling this out of their ass. Last I checked, bundling software was quite legal and a good business tactic.

Based on what I've seen in this thread, sounds like the Opera guy is getting angry that people are using stock software instead of his browser. Little tip there buddeh: try adding features to your browser that make people want to use it, mmk?

((In response to Ross)) Although it probably should do that to Google Chrome...

Anyone else here miss the days where, oh I don't know, no one cared about which publisher had IE in a bundle?

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Originally Posted by DarkHalo003

Anyone else here miss the days where, oh I don't know, no one cared about which publisher had IE in a bundle?

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I miss the days when humankind was distinctly less pathetic

So, I just thought of something:

If Microsoft isn't allowed to package an internet browser with their operating system anymore, how the hell is anyone going to get on the internet to download it? Or Opera? Or Firefox?

Logic is where :downs:

How DARE they give me a free software? I DEMAND they stop forcing their complimentary programs down my throat and make me pay for them like the rest of the shit! This is just too stupid to be real. It has to be motivated by something else.

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Originally Posted by p0lar_bear

So, I just thought of something:

If Microsoft isn't allowed to package an internet browser with their operating system anymore, how the hell is anyone going to get on the internet to download it? Or Opera? Or Firefox?

Logic is where :downs:

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Already discussed...

They want people to buy web browsers in the store.

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Originally Posted by Phopojijo

Already discussed...

They want people to buy web browsers in the store.

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Oh okay. So, let's put a price tag on free software and force users to buy it.

The sheer stupidity of this situation is really irritating. FOSS browsers like Opera and Firefox have already found their users, stop trying to take the rest and being butthurt because there are people who prefer IE over your browser.

Eat a dick, EU.

More could be said - and done so with more elegance - but it's just not worth it. The above is an appropriate summary of the facts, opinions, assumptions, arguments, and general thoughts by myself on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Nick

Eat a dick, EU.

More could be said - and done so with more elegance - but it's just not worth it. The above is an appropriate summary of the facts, opinions, assumptions, arguments, and general thoughts by myself on this subject.

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What burns my ass is that this will probably affect Windows distributions worldwide, and not just Europe. Look at SP3 and the Address toolba- wait you can't never mind. :smith: Unless you hack it, of course, heh.

Oshi-

I never realised that the address bar was gone...meh, never used it anyways.

By EU logic, Apple can't bundle Safari with OS X...

Actually, by the same logic, Apple can't bundle OS X with its computers, because it's "forcing" customers to use that product.

Way to fail again, EU.

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Originally Posted by p0lar_bear

What burns my ass is that this will probably affect Windows distributions worldwide, and not just Europe. Look at SP3 and the Address toolba- wait you can't never mind. :smith: Unless you hack it, of course, heh.

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What? It will only affect the N edition, just like the removal of WMP and other "monopolyware". All Microsoft has to do is offer retailers the option of purchasing a monopolyware-free edition throughout the EU and they've done their part; if said retailers choose to only buy the full editions, that's not Microsoft's fault.

Nick

Didn't this crap happen when Microsoft first started implementing IE?

Ugh, most operating systems come pre-equipped with a browser, whats it matter if Windows just uses IE? (Even though IE blows) Just take 5 secs to DL another one and be about your business.

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Originally Posted by Kalub

Ugh, most operating systems come pre-equipped with a browser, whats it matter if Windows just uses IE? (Even though IE blows) Just take 5 secs to DL another one and be about your business.

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Apparently the average consumer is too profoundly stupid/lazy to do it themselves, and this is a horrible tragedy which needs to be resolved by deeming the same thing every other company does as illegal for MS.

This is basically the same thing that prevents Windows Movie Maker and such from coming packaged with Windows now. Honestly I'm all for streamlining the OS, it makes for quicker fresh installs, as a system builder that's something I love.

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Originally Posted by Freelancer

This is basically the same thing that prevents Windows Movie Maker and such from coming packaged with Windows now. Honestly I'm all for streamlining the OS, it makes for quicker fresh installs, as a system builder that's something I love.

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I installed Windows 7 in 15 minutes. Pulling out a few hundred MB of various programs (IE, WMP, WMM, etc.) isn't going to speed that up significantly. It's not like it has to compile each application during installation, it's a simple copy operation for the most part.

Nick

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Originally Posted by Nick

I installed Windows 7 in 15 minutes. Pulling out a few hundred MB of various programs (IE, WMP, WMM, etc.) isn't going to speed that up significantly. It's not like it has to compile each application during installation, it's a simple copy operation for the most part.

Nick

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Uh, he said that having the programs added in from the get go makes it quicker.

And it does. Having Windows installed with IE, WMP, and WMM means that I don't need to stop working, find the discs, go out and buy them if I don't have them, and then wait for each of those to install.

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Originally Posted by p0lar_bear

Uh, he said that having the programs added in from the get go makes it quicker.

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No, "streamlining" means to be as minimalistic as possible to improve performance. When people talk about streamlining something, they're talking about removing "unnecessary" bloat.

Nick