Pardon Our (CMT's) Ignorance.

Since the other thread was locked to try and veer away from another impending argument, here's a new one.

Two days ago, Masters and his team decided it would be best for the mod to use OpenSauce. He made a few requests, some which others deemed unreasonable, and said that if they could be pulled off, then they would use OS. Last night, Kornman finished the first major part of the mod - the memory limits. This was the first issue that he promised to resolve, and he did it. Unfortunately, Masters responded by telling him to stop because he was reconsidering again not using it because of the same reasons prior to his decision to switch (the ones that were shot down time and time again).

But in addition to his thinking being the same as before, he is claiming that Kornman is unable to increase the vehicle limit to "unlimited" from 80. Kornman encourages them to reuse their vehicles and bipeds, and says they should not even have to request an increase in that. Additionally, if they want to increase it desperately, then zTeam has allowed CMT to use their 320 limit increase. Unfortunately, when you bump up the limit, the game becomes more unstable, so he doesn't want to use theirs (like Kornman's increase would be different).

So now, with us back at square one again, and me being "such a whiney bitch," it's back to the decision table again.


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Update with Masters being a faggot here: http://www.modacity.net/forums/showt...434#post404434

What the fuck :eyesroll:

I don't see the point in halting the project, what's changed from two days ago when they accepted the offer?

The limits placed on the editing kit (ie: the 80 vehicle placement limit) are strictly on the editing kit, not halo itself (with the exception of a few). Halo doesnt check that you're not going over these preset limits, as it doesn't even contain the tag definitions. Given, theres going to be problems with memory and whatnot when you have an extreme increase over the limit, but an increase to a 320 limit for vehicles in a scenario is hardly anything to worry about.

Seriously, what's your problem? It's not your mod. Please stay out of our affairs. This has nothing to do with you.

Why do you continue with this abomination?

I see it as kornman is going out of his way to update OS. If CMT still bitchs and moans about problems then kornman should just pull out.

Why should CMT call the shots and pressurize kornman?

Well CMT doesn't really seem to mind cutting everything out of their mod, so it's almost like Kornman is doing them more of a favor by encouraging them to keep it.

And I've been asked the question of why I have to get involved with your affairs enough. My answer isn't changing. It's because you can't think straight and use what is at your disposal to not have to cut things out. You might say you found a way to make more space, but at WHAT expense? Cutting out something of any value isn't a solution to a problem. Using OpenSauce to remove limits is.

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Originally Posted by Limited

I see it as kornman is going out of his way to update OS. If CMT still bitchs and moans about problems then kornman should just pull out.

Why should CMT call the shots and pressurize kornman?

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I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.

Why is there so much drama around this. I just want to play Halo, a really nice candy coated Halo. :(

You really think I'm the only one who thinks you're full of shit?

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Originally Posted by il Duce Primo

I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.

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Masters was yesterday in his thread...

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Originally Posted by il Duce Primo

I have yet to see us bitch about it. The only person is Jcap and he doesn't have anything to do with CMT. At this point he's just another fanboy.

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To turn down an offer like this would be completely foolish. Korn offered to bypass the memory restrictions, he even threw in an offer to research multiple sounds.map/bitmaps.map resources, which would significantly cut down on your map file sizes and download time. I stand by jcap, and anyone that doesn't see cmt's decision as a stupid one needs to rethink the entire situation. The benefits of the offer severely outweigh the down sides, I don't even understand why cmt needs to think before accepting.

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Originally Posted by TeeKup

Why is there so much drama around this. I just want to play Halo, a really nice candy coated Halo. :(

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supersniper likes this

Iagree with Jcap on this, why cut out hard work when you can just leave it, use the amazing work done by Korn and have even more in the mod.

Masterz (and some others in CMT) don't trust themselves to not put a ton of crap in once the limits are removed.

I personally believe that if they set out a list of things they would add without limits while Korn was working on removing the limits, then, as a group, decided what out of that list to add and not add, then stick soley to that list, I see no reason why limitless tools could be a bad thing for this mod.

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Originally Posted by sdavis117

Masterz (and some others in CMT) don't trust themselves to not put a ton of crap in once the limits are removed.

I personally believe that if they set out a list of things they would add without limits while Korn was working on removing the limits, then, as a group, decided what out of that list to add and not add, then stick soley to that list, I see no reason why limitless tools could be a bad thing for this mod.

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That's the thing, they would still have limits, they would just be larger than before. Even if they had the urge to keep adding more content, they would eventually hit the limit again. So it's a poor excuse to say they don't trust themselves to put a ton of shit in.

I can't believe you guys. Complaining over limits of a mod.
There are hungry black children in africa that don't have enough food, and you don't see them bitching (as much) about it.

For shame, all of you!

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Originally Posted by L0d3x

I can't believe you guys. Complaining over limits of a mod.
There are hungry black children in africa that don't have enough food, and you don't see them bitching (as much) about it.

For shame, all of you!

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They're too hungry to bitch about it.

/Insensitive

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Originally Posted by Arteen

Seriously, what's your problem? It's not your mod. Please stay out of our affairs. This has nothing to do with you.

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Because just as kornman holds his end of the bargain your so called leader decides to change his mind pretty much wasting kornmans time.
He's doing you lot a favour by taking time out of his life to help you lot.
He could quite easily be doing something much more worthwhile like personal lifestyle or going back to his H2Radio tool....

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Originally Posted by Limited

Masters was yesterday in his thread...

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There isn't a post in that thread from yesterday. Stop making shit up to make us look like bad guys.

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Originally Posted by il Duce Primo

There isn't a post in that thread from yesterday. Stop making shit up to make us look like bad guys.

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Why would he do that? You do that well enough by yourselves.

Are you guys seriously still modding this game :embarrassed:

Terrible decisions. You've been bitching and crying about restrictions for years. You have the ability to stop wincing and removing bit after bit, but you lot are just too prideful to accept a good thing, even though you know YOU are wrong by not doing it.

Masters you were all over me about acting different and making better decisions and helping the community, and supposedly, you had decided to do that too.

How's that working out for you? It seems like you're not helping the community, you're only serving yourself and struggling.

I think Jcap wants this so bad so he can blow halo up in style :P

I am in the middle of this argument tbh, I see why Masterz wants the whole community able to play this mod on all versions of the game, and I see jcaps side by why CMT are being silly and not taking an offer of adding awesone content.

Personally I would love Masterz to take the offer up... :S

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Originally Posted by Haruko

It looks like they are arguing over lying about modding a game, blind!

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A five year old game!!!
teh

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Originally Posted by Arteen

Seriously, what's your problem? It's not your mod. Please stay out of our affairs. This has nothing to do with you.

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.

That's already been answered a couple of times in the last few pages, and even below that on the first page.

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

Terrible decisions. You've been bitching and crying about restrictions for years. You have the ability to stop wincing and removing bit after bit, but you lot are just too prideful to accept a good thing, even though you know YOU are wrong by not doing it.

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You overaged fanboy you. Not accepting, no, halting the offer development has no dire consequences for any of our plans. As has been said, a solution to the memory limit problem has been found, and required no need for OS.

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Originally Posted by L0d3x

You overaged fanboy you. Not accepting, no, halting the offer development has no dire consequences for any of our plans. As has been said, a solution to the memory limit problem has been found, and required no need for OS.

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I would love to know what this "solution" is. Cutting even more content from your maps to barely get the maps to compile?

The solution gives us plenty of breathing space, that is all you should be concerned about.

PS: no need to block me on AIM over this shit

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Originally Posted by L0d3x

The solution gives us plenty of breathing space, that is all you should be concerned about.

PS: no need to block me on AIM over this shit

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Does it give you free bandwidth and smaller map sizes too?

Didn't think so.

The following posts are going to be like scooby doo trying to figure out this new solution :P

Continue:

Brent would never post here.

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Originally Posted by L0d3x

The solution gives us plenty of breathing space, that is all you should be concerned about.

PS: no need to block me on AIM over this shit

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I find it funny that you guys are so reluctant to tell about your "solution", but I bet that is because its not even a true solution, just you cutting out content.

Another aspect nobody is talking about is the size of the maps. The map sizes are not small, they are around 400mb each, maybe more. Kornman has stated he is going to work on allowing new shared maps (bitmaps.map and sounds.map) to be used for the campaign mod. This will dramatically decrease all of the map sizes, thus shortening download time and cutting down on the amount of bandwidth. Who here can say that this would not be helpful? Nobody.

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Originally Posted by Choking Victim

Does it give you free bandwidth and smaller map sizes too?

Didn't think so.

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Don't make me insult your mother :D

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Originally Posted by ShadowSpartan

I find it funny that you guys are so reluctant to tell about your "solution", but I bet that is because its not even a true solution, just you cutting out content.

Another aspect nobody is talking about is the size of the maps. The map sizes are not small, they are around 400mb each, maybe more. Kornman has stated he is going to work on allowing new shared maps (bitmaps.map and sounds.map) to be used for the campaign mod. This will dramatically decrease all of the map sizes, thus shortening download time and cutting down on the amount of bandwidth. Who here can say that this would not be helpful? Nobody.

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This is exactly what I'm thinking. This entire issue is about how cutting content is NOT a solution to restrictions - OpenSauce is. I'm speculating that you're holding back your "solution" because you'd be making examples of our argument.

While some of the limits placed on tag blocks and tag data don't have much meaning (other than maybe exceeding the maximum value of what indexes it, say a 16 bit integer), there IS a meaning for the limits applied to object placement blocks. The game only allocates a fixed set of memory for all game objects. Every object consumes this memory when instanced. This includes projectiles, placeholders and garbage (ie flood).

Now, imagine an intense scene with 1 player, then a good sized marine squad of say 9. Now, the player is driving a tank, who has 2 marines with him, with 2 more in a warthog then 4 more in another tank.

The enemy includes 2 shades with 2 grunts manning them, 2 banshees with 2 elites, 2 wraiths with 2 elites again, then maybe 3 sets of 1 elite and 4 grunts. Then you have maybe 5 jackels running around.

Now, we're going to assume that every biped in this scene has 1 weapon and 2 of each grenade type. Except for the player, he has 2 weapons and 4 of each grenade type. Then you have to include the "weapons" which are attached to the vehicles (ie the shade's plasma cannon)

Then we're going to assume there are 15 different equipment pickups nested in the scene (heath, rocket ammo, active cammo, etc). The maybe 5 more weapons just scattered and not being used by anyone.

While the grenades don't add to the object memory until actually thrown (just like projectiles from a weapon IIRC), they are still going to be counted when actual battle commences so they're a huge factor (especially if it was Halo 2 and we had Catch on ;p)

We end up totalling in about 15 equipment, 55 weapon, 36 biped, and 9 vehicle objects. 115 base objects. Now lets assume on average that each biped is shooting off 10 active projectiles (grunts with needlers would probably raise this average dramatically). Thats 475 objects total thus far for this battle scene, not considering any grenades or the actual scenery.

This scene takes up about 20% of the object memory. Now, you have to factor in what the scenario has placed. This includes (sound) scenery, devices, etc. In CMT's detailed case, you've probably got the rest of your 80% of the level right there. 80 vehicles BY THEMSELVES (no other spawned objects, not even a player) take up about 7% of the memory. CMT's highest vehicle count I think masters said was 115. That alone is bumped up to 9%.

These limits aren't meant to be trifled with unless you know what you're doing.

http://squishy.hamletsasissy.com/alb...18/dogbert.gif

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Originally Posted by jcap

[21:30] jrcap14: Kornman just finished the memory upgrade to OS
[21:30] jrcap14: and created a campaign expansion system

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Campaign Expansion System? what's that?

Also is this a CMT exclusive upgrade to Open Sauce or will it be released publicly when it is completed?

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Originally Posted by Rhydgaled

Campaign Expansion System? what's that?

Also is this a CMT exclusive upgrade to Open Sauce or will it be released publicly when it is completed?

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I see no reason why the upgraded source code would not be released to the public.

Well if anything, this whole charade has certainly made the CE section more active.
Trust CMT to bring the drama back home. :lol:
Il probably be -reped for my honesty but really, only thoses are full of themselves and hypocritical will do that, amirite palidin?

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Originally Posted by jcap

Two days ago, Masters and his team decided it would be best for the mod to use OpenSauce. He made a few requests, some which others deemed unreasonable, and said that if they could be pulled off, then they would use OS.

Last night, Kornman finished the first major part of the mod - the memory limits... Unfortunately, Masters responded by telling him to stop...

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Some requests can't be pulled off, so we won't necessarily use OS. Simple.

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Originally Posted by jcap

Unfortunately, when you bump up the limit, the game becomes more unstable

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Seems like a reasonable concern.

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Originally Posted by Limited

I see it as kornman is going out of his way to update OS. If CMT still bitchs and moans about problems then kornman should just pull out.

Why should CMT call the shots and pressurize kornman?

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We're calling the shots? From my perspective, we were forced into using OS because Kornman refused to update OS otherwise. Kornman is not obligated to update OS and we're not obligated to use it. Don't blame us if Kornman doesn't update OS.

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Originally Posted by jcap

Well CMT doesn't really seem to mind cutting everything out of their mod, so it's almost like Kornman is doing them more of a favor by encouraging them to keep it.

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That's hyperbole. We certainly still have a lot of content in our mod.

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Originally Posted by jcap

It's because you can't think straight and use what is at your disposal to not have to cut things out. You might say you found a way to make more space, but at WHAT expense? Cutting out something of any value isn't a solution to a problem. Using OpenSauce to remove limits is.

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First, it's still not your problem. Please stay out of it. Second,...

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Originally Posted by Choking Victim

The benefits of the offer severely outweigh the down sides, I don't even understand why cmt needs to think before accepting.

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I disagree.

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Originally Posted by supersniper

supersniper likes this

Iagree with Jcap on this, why cut out hard work when you can just leave it, use the amazing work done by Korn and have even more in the mod.

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We want to finish the mod, not add content just because we can.

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Originally Posted by =sw=warlord

He's doing you lot a favour by taking time out of his life to help you lot.
He could quite easily be doing something much more worthwhile like personal lifestyle or going back to his H2Radio tool....

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Personally, I wanted to hold off on committing to a decision until we were ready, but the rest of the team felt pressured to make the decision too soon. If we wasted Kornman's time, then sorry.

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

Terrible decisions. You've been bitching and crying about restrictions for years. You have the ability to stop wincing and removing bit after bit, but you lot are just too prideful to accept a good thing, even though you know YOU are wrong by not doing it.

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What? What does pride have to do with anytihng? How are we flat-out wrong for not doing it?

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Originally Posted by Hunter

Personally I would love Masterz to take the offer up... :S

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If we take the offer, then people are going to expect us to make more and more.

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Originally Posted by jcap

This is exactly what I'm thinking. This entire issue is about how cutting content is NOT a solution to restrictions - OpenSauce is. I'm speculating that you're holding back your "solution" because you'd be making examples of our argument.

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We're getting rid off stuff I didn't even realize was there, and doesn't affect anything. Nothing to write home about.

what are you guys doing

FFFFFFF

i thought this was all organized >:(

expecting you to make more and more? i think not. by taking cutscenes out, you're taking out the story, and that's a big thing halo is about. etc etc, i won't reiterate more about everything that everyone already knows, including yourselves.

http://www.modacity.net/forums/showp...4&postcount=69

wow....havent been here in like a year and after this probably won't be back.


I just read through all of these threads. It looks like the version debate is over. Wow using the newest version is obviously the right choice...I mean why would you choose an empty cup when you could have a cup full of water. Why should you let the people that are too stupid to upgrade enjoy something that the community is supposed to enjoy. The people that pirate and don't upgrade hurt the community.

On object limits and OS: If Kornman can increase the space for stuff, why cut it? If the offer is accepted the mod can be bigger in terms of content you can use. You may not be able to get all this content at once, but still. If the offer is taken than CMT can live up to their original goal of introducing the player to lots of content. Now, that doesn't mean they have to rush out and make more and more stuff, rather it allows them to include the stuff they have collected over the years.


And Im out. :cool:

So why didn't you reply to my post Arteen? Don't have a reasonable argument against it? Even if you don't feel you need the memory upgrades, why not use OS to decrease the map sizes by putting content in a shared map?

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Originally Posted by Arteen

I disagree.

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Why? You've given us almost no logical reason why you're declining the offer, but we've given several reasons why you should. Here's a list so you can see how beneficial it is:

Benefits:
1. Lower map file sizes and faster download speeds (if korn pulls through with this aspect of the upgrade).
2. Memory increases.
3. Tag slot increases.
4. The community gets the benefit of using and learning from this upgrade to open sauce.
5. Multiple shared (bitmaps.map/sounds.map) resource cache files. (again if korn pulls through)
6. Possible other goodies judging from korn's post "There may be another trick up the sleave you may enjoy".

Down-sides:
1. You think you'll keep adding content to the maps with zero restrictions (even though there's still a limit).
2. You'll be limited to version 1.08 users.

Feel free to add to the down-sides list, as you were mostly unclear as to what exactly would be the bad thing about using open sauce.

oh for the love of....

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

expecting you to make more and more? i think not. by taking cutscenes out, you're taking out the story, and that's a big thing halo is about. etc etc, i won't reiterate more about everything that everyone already knows, including yourselves.

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We took out the hangar cutscene and the Legendary cutscene. Good riddance to the former, and the latter is trivial. That's not much of an issue.

We're going to have another chat about OS later, but in the meantime, it's our decision, not anyone else's, so I'd appreciate it if people would stop dictating to our group what to do (jcap, particularly). Using OS is not the right decision and not using OS is not the wrong decision.

Limiting yourself by not using OS is the wrong decision.

And why have you all avoided answering the question presented earlier: what is the "solution"?

Im gonna put in my two cents before I got to go finish vaccuming, I had to write this up quick.

Masterz, and anyone else involved in this.

For several years now, you've been complaining "UGH THIS IS SO HARD I CANT INCREASE THE LIMIT OH SHIT TAG SPACE ERRORS" but. when the opportunity to fix that comes, you become completely fucking ignorant and think about your player base rather than the quality of your mod. We already went over this, if we were to have an installer to fix the issue. We thought we solved this issue and got all the way up to Step 4 and then you decided to change your mind because of a POSSIBLE issue and now we're back here at Step 0 with you arguing your same ignorant little argument of "playerbase" and "possible instability" before you even fucking tried.

I don't have time to read the whole thread so if this has been stated before, sorry, I'm in kind of a rush. Same with the spelling and shit I just dont have the time.

E: Also, I'd like to remind you people that during a live broadcast I asked to see the spike rifle. I saw the animations and said I didn't like them and said "I think they're crappy" Masterz pulled a Halo2hCE (my old account when I was 10) and replied with something along the lines of: "Rain, you're a fucking scrub, shut up because if we thought it was bad then we'd replace it, there's no need for you to say anything so shut up" If arguing a set of animations made him do this, now I think there's no point in arguing over Open Sauce.

EE: holy shit I got +67 rep for this post :|

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Originally Posted by Arteen

If we take the offer, then people are going to expect us to make more and more.

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No, I think you could make the current conent better because you could use boarding ect... Not add more content, there isnt really much more content to add, you have it all Lol.

It justs gives you a open mind with the current content :D And allows more weapons to be added into a level lyk a nuke launcherzz :P

And posts in this thread arnt telling you to do this, they are reasoning with you and explaining what advantages there are. Your decision at the end of the day, but think logical, and think hard about every post. :D

Funny, the 1.04 players and the 1.0 pirates were chastised up until now, when it's convenient :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by FlamingRain

Im gonna put in my two cents before I got to go finish vaccuming, I had to write this up quick.

Masterz, and anyone else involved in this.

For several years now, you've been complaining "UGH THIS IS SO HARD I CANT INCREASE THE LIMIT OH SHIT TAG SPACE ERRORS" but. when the opportunity to fix that comes, you become completely fucking ignorant and think about your player base rather than the quality of your mod. We already went over this, if we were to have an installer to fix the issue. We thought we solved this issue and got all the way up to Step 4 and then you decided to change your mind because of a POSSIBLE issue and now we're back here at Step 0 with you arguing your same ignorant little argument of "playerbase" and "possible instability" before you even fucking tried.

I don't have time to read the whole thread so if this has been stated before, sorry, I'm in kind of a rush. Same with the spelling and shit I just dont have the time.

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That's the first thought out, and intelligent thing I have ever seen come out of you.

There is no good reason to not use OS, and cutting a lot of the stuff you cut is taking away from the quality of what of the campaign itself. Just, fucking, use, it.

I have a lot to say about this, but I frankly don't care much anymore. Either in public or private I think I've addressed almost every point that's been brought up by the people to whom this is most relevant, and I don't care to do so again because people can't realize that once a point has been rendered null you don't go back to arguing it.

The one thing I'll say now is that I'm tired of our members who are going "don't tell us how to run our team."

We don't have to maintain this great principle of "we never listen to anyone :mad: so dont tell us what to do :mad: :mad: :mad:". We're just being stubborn and hyperdogmatic if we reject using OS for that reason. Some suggestions are petty, unreasonable, nitpicky, fanboyish, or otherwise worthy of being ignored, but this one has serious merit and is worth considering with the rest of the community as a party to our decision - after all, they're going to be effected by it more than the average suggestion of "make the wraith less shiny" or "add in a flood plasma rifle."

To my understanding now, a lot of people want this OS update because they want sexy Halo for all maps. And because they want CMTv2 to be at its best. So we can all finish Halo in style with a beer on the beach, on earth, and watch fireworks of Halo blowing up.

So if CMT decide not to use it, fair enough, but that means we all lose out because we dont have an OS update. Ignorance pardoned :P

@Kornman:
Will you defo not make this update for the general community if CMT dont use it? Or would you spare a bit of time for the commmunity and make it?

My opinion still stands: See what you can do. I would go with the installer that would update everyone to 1.08 and extract the CMT maps, along with Sauce. See if those possible problems are really a big problem and if they are then find a way to work around it. Don't just start freaking out because there is a possible stability issue. Find what happens WITH the stability issue. Find some way to fix that. Keep pushing until everything seems to go well.

E: I also don't see why you want to appeal to 1.00 or 1.04, or ever 1.07 players.

Since the only "real" downside to OS presented so far is "version compatability" (which can be taken care of easily anyways), wouldn't they be able to go back and forth with the version changer anyways?

Don't say anything about 1.0 players, they're pirates. The only reason you would support them (even after ostracizing them for years) would be to add a flimsy and selfish support point for your argument.


Oh, I forget, there's the conjectured "stability issue" which still holds no merit because you haven't even gotten that far.

Just accept Kornman00's offer and make it for 1.08 to take advantage of the new limits. If people want to play it badly enough, they'll have no choice but to update to 1.08. No real loss from what I see. Don't cater to all the loyal-to-1.07-and-below people. If they are pirates who can't get a legal copy and update, then they just deserve to miss out on quality content here.

Pirates should pay for quality. If they dont, there loss.

"Good things dont come free"

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

Since the only "real" downside to OS presented so far is "version compatability" (which can be taken care of easily anyways), wouldn't they be able to go back and forth with the version changer anyways?

Don't say anything about 1.0 players, they're pirates. The only reason you would support them (even after ostracizing them for years) would be to add a flimsy and selfish support point for your argument.


Oh, I forget, there's the conjectured "stability issue" which still holds no merit because you haven't even gotten that far.

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Can it actually be compatible with different versions? If so, a couple of problems here can be removed.

Here's my post with a little more back-research:

There is a supposed possible stability error if you use the vehicle limit increase and open sauce, so you're disqualifying it even though you haven't been there yet and have no fucking idea what the problem is, or what it does.

You want to cater to people with 1.00, 1.04, and 1.07. Why? So you can have more people play? That seems like a ridiculous argument to me. I thought we already had a solution to the problem which was to package an installer that would increase the vehicle limit, install open sauce, and upgrade to 1.08? What is there to argue? A possible issue that isn't even a problem yet and you don't even know what it is, or what it does.

Also: I see people throwing around the term "fanboy" ALOT in this thread. What gives?

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Originally Posted by jcap

And why have you all avoided answering the question presented earlier: what is the "solution"?

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Because the specifics are irrelevant? Why are you so suspicious?

We're cutting two color channels out of every bitmap so that the entire mod is in shades of green.

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Originally Posted by teh lag

The one thing I'll say now is that I'm tired of our members who are going "don't tell us how to run our team."

We don't have to maintain this great principle of "we never listen to anyone :mad: so dont tell us what to do :mad: :mad: :mad:". We're just being stubborn and hyperdogmatic if we reject using OS for that reason. Some suggestions are petty, unreasonable, nitpicky, fanboyish, or otherwise worthy of being ignored, but this one has serious merit and is worth considering with the rest of the community as a party to our decision - after all, they're going to be effected by it more than the average suggestion of "make the wraith less shiny" or "add in a flood plasma rifle."

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I never said anything about rejecting OS because of people telling us how to run our team. I'm annoyed that people, especially jcap who made this flame thread, are making this such a personal, right-or-wrong issue, telling us what to do instead of suggesting what to do, and that we've been pushed into using OS before we know we need it, because Kornman won't update OS if we don't use it. I might have gotten carried away in my arguing, and I apologize for that, but please stop making demands of us and insulting us if we don't conform to what you want.

I've always liked getting feedback and suggestions (even though Masters prefers the "we don't care what you think" approach), and I do agree that there have been many good arguments for OS in this thread. I'm also glad that most people in the thread have presented their opinions without being insulting or overbearing. Personally, I am totally fine with using OS. I don't think we really need it, but it'd be nice to have at our disposal, and we can do some cool stuff with it.

Also, we totally need a flood plasma rifle.

lol @ one of my posts. I forgot to finish one of those sentences. :embarrassed:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arteen

We're cutting two color channels out of every bitmap so that the entire mod is in shades of green.

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Sounds like a plan. Halo-forestmod :p

This whole thing is ridiculous. Its not a right-or-wrong, good vs. evil issue. Its a "We as a community think this is the best solution" thing. We're not fervently angry or anything, but in the end, I cant think of a better solution than using the OS. Especially when compared to lowering the color scale so you can fit in all of the content. I don't understand why you guys are so repulsed by the idea.

However, a question that is yet to be asked is this: Do you guys not want to use OS because you've already finished removing the two color bands? That would make alot of sense, as I'd be pretty fucking pissed if everyone was trying to tell me to go back and do something AGAIN when I'd already solved an issue.

You cant think thats for real.

Tyrant, l2sarcasm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter

Sounds like a plan. Halo-forestmod :p

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Yea, too bad that wouldn't decrease the size the bitmap takes up in memory. Each channel has a value in the bitmap raw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arteen

Because the specifics are irrelevant? Why are you so suspicious?

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Seriously though, why is it irrelevant? It is a perfectly acceptable question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TVTyrant

This whole thing is ridiculous. Its not a right-or-wrong, good vs. evil issue. Its a "We as a community think this is the best solution" thing. We're not fervently angry or anything, but in the end, I cant think of a better solution than using the OS. Especially when compared to lowering the color scale so you can fit in all of the content. I don't understand why you guys are so repulsed by the idea.

However, a question that is yet to be asked is this: Do you guys not want to use OS because you've already finished removing the two color bands? That would make alot of sense, as I'd be pretty fucking pissed if everyone was trying to tell me to go back and do something AGAIN when I'd already solved an issue.

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Wow, please tell me this post was a joke.

You really think they would do that? :lmao:

You guys take all of this so seriously its lols.

[thumb]http://www.freshbytes.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/internet-serious-business-cat.jpg[/thumb]

Im off bed, nighty night.

Is that the "y so srs" cat without the "makeup"?

yo dawg, i heard you like flame wars

so we made a flame thread about cmt, so you can flame while you flame the entire way away

But in all seriousness, it really depends on who wants it and who doesnt.

I can look at both sides and see what points they are trying to make.

Masterz's side doesnt want to use OS because of the mod almost being in it's final stage, and adding OS would drag the release date of the campaign to a far later date.

Jcap's side wants CMT to use it for the benefits of OS (tag limit, space, vehicles, etc) and believes it's foolish for CMT to NOT to take the offer.

I would say my opinion but I believe that it wouldnt make a good point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arteen

I've always liked getting feedback and suggestions (even though Masters prefers the "we don't care what you think" approach)

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Which is a piss-poor mentality and won't do him, or the team any good.

Talking directly to Masterz here. If you EVER want to succeed in this industry, you HAVE to listen to your community. Yes, there will be some sacrifices, but you do have the option to keep stuff you can't stand losing. When it comes down to it, the game is about the fans. Games like the Unreal Tournament series, or Gears of War, or pretty much any quality game got to where they were by listening to fan feedback, implementing changes even if it hurt them, and overall delivering a more polished experience for the fans.

Now, since I keep saying "This is for the fans," I do have to limit this, by saying that catering to the pirates of the game is also a piss-poor idea, and only casts you in a selfish light. If you're honestly measuring your mod's worth by the amount of downloads it gets, rather than the actual quality of the mod, then I think you're going the wrong way.

An example of "quality vs quantity" is a game called Beyond Good & Evil. It was a miserably underappreciated game. You rarely hear talk of it, but when it comes to the game itself, it is one of the highest caliber experiences I have ever had. Because of the amount of polish in the game, and the engrossing gameplay, I became a fan for life. Now, what you're doing is taking measly people who aren't even devoted enough fans of Halo to shell out the $10 to buy the fucking thing, you're sacrificing polish and quality for THEM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masterz1337

Is that the "y so srs" cat without the "makeup"?

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It is!!!!!
Masterz i think you should do what you want with this mod you are teh masterz1337 of teh halo community!!1! :cool::cool::cool:

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Originally Posted by Masterz1337

Is that the "y so srs" cat without the "makeup"?

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Dunno, did a random google image search of "internet serious"
:party:

what the fuck is this thread http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...cripesduck.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShadowSpartan

Yea, too bad that wouldn't decrease the size the bitmap takes up in memory. Each channel has a value in the bitmap raw.

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Hopefully OS can fix that.

Wait...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShadowSpartan

Seriously though, why is it irrelevant? It is a perfectly acceptable question.

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We didn't cut anything that affects gameplay, so it's irrelevant. It's just some UI stuff that took up a lot of space.

I know this question is better suited for the main CMT thread, but since you are discussing UI's, and for some reason that created a chain reaction that is making me ask this question, and since I hate unanswered question, I must ask it here.

Will it actually tell me which key to press to "Keep it as it is" or "try it the other way" when I am calibrating my "Looking Stick", or will I just have to guess again (like in SPv1)?

/derailment

Edit: Fuck yes, no tits tuts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnaFuBAR

wouldn't they be able to go back and forth with the version changer anyways?.

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.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arteen

Because the specifics are irrelevant? Why are you so suspicious?

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Because I think that if you told us, you'd be making huge fools of yourselves.

So, that's why I am going to guess you removed the Delta UI Timo and I made. No big deal for us, really. Masters is just butthurt over this and he just thinks that he can damn-well really show us by taking it out because of my lack of support for your moronic actions.

I don't care; you're only helping me actually. Now you've only proved our case, because of your foolish action. You're sacrificing quality again just like you have been doing all along because you are out of space.

You can't forget here that Masters was the one who approached me with intentions of using it.

Quote:

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Masterz1337: it alright if we get all the delta halo ui tags? for ui maps as well as the sp/mp ones?

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He is the one who requested to have it for the mod to make it better, but that seems to be the very least of your intentions now. Do you even pay attention to your own actions? If you did, you would clearly see that you just pulled something I've been on your backs about since the beginning of this thread. You are are all a joke.

At least now I don't need to worry about finishing the new UI before your release.



So still, what about the filesize? Why can't you go with a shared cache file to cut it down by half. I know you've been waiting on me to say this, so I'm not going to provide hosting if you don't make any effort to reduce the overall size of the mod when you can cut it down by 50% at least.

And if you laugh at that, thinking that is the worst I can do, then you need to think about the scenario. How will people download? This was a concern addressed in Pardon Our Dust, so what is your answer to it? HaloMaps? Well I hope you have fun providing one single download source for a couple hundred people of a 2 GB file. Dennis will greatly appreciate it. Too bad Halomaps also only lets one download at a time, and at speeds of maybe less than 90 kb/s while hundreds are downloading. Too bad not many sites support huge-ass downloads, or cap off bandwidth limits like 250 MB per hour, and then make you wait another 2 hours to download again.

Meanwhile, we have around 7 servers with essentially no caps that can provide mirrors and reliable downloads. We even pushed through 500 GB in half a day on one server. Looks like that won't be necessary, though.

It's funny... your intention is to aim for a larger audience so more can play, but what will they play if they can't get it? :v:

The main reason I came up with an idea to update OS a bit was because of CMT's posts regarding the memory issues. I believe in moving forward, and the whole version spread, to me, is quite ridiculous. IMO, if you haven't upgraded to 1.08 its because you're still using 1.07 for Battery or because you're a pirate. Arrrrr, shiver me code. I saw it as a chance to possibly bring more people to the same page and have more users browsing the 1.08 server list. It would have been a mutual relationship, not a parasitic. They get to bring back what they originally cut out, I (or we, for those that care) get to see more users come to 1.08, plus future mod teams don't have to worry so much with constraints, they can work in a more next-gen environment (in terms of memory of course).

When I first posted about upgrading OS I was only aware of the tag memory, tag instance and cache size constants issues. Script data and unit limits came later when Master's read off his "ransom list" for OS and SPv2. If I'm going to expand the engine's powers, I'm going to do so in a way that doesn't break compatibility with official game data nor cause instability during play (not on purpose anyway).

I felt this mod's need for assistance was a proper reason for me to dust off OS a bit and get OS a little publicity. Before there really wasn't much motivation or reason to continue with doing anything OS related as there was no hook, line and sinker effect. Nor was there any real need for it's capabilities, which is up to the end user to exploit and implement from.
Thats right: its up to you if you want any shader bullshit upgrades. Engineering just doesn't magically happen from setting some magical value to some magical constant\expression. I didn't figure out how to do MTV by compiling code which read "make halo1 be more like halo2". Go star on MTV if you want your money for nothing and checks for free.

So to answer the question if I'll still release the update to OS even if Masters retracts the request for OS: eventually I'm sure. However if my main motivator falls out I have to rebalance my priorities again and OS really just doesn't factor in with what I've been working on these past 5\6 months, which has its own milestones and deadline.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

You are are all a joke.

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;););););););););)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

I don't care; you're only helping me actually. Now you've only proved our case, because of your foolish action. You're sacrificing quality again just like you have been doing all along because you are out of space.

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I honestly never even noticed that we were using a special UI, so for me it's a matter of removing bloat, not quality, no offense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdavis117

Will it actually tell me which key to press to "Keep it as it is" or "try it the other way" when I am calibrating my "Looking Stick", or will I just have to guess again (like in SPv1)?

/derailment

Edit: Fuck yes, no tits tuts.

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All the string issues from Spv1 are fixed, so that issue won't arise in any form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

So still, what about the filesize? Why can't you go with a shared cache file to cut it down by half. I know you've been waiting on me to say this, so I'm not going to provide hosting if you don't make any effort to reduce the overall size of the mod when you can cut it down by 50% at least.

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How do shared caches work, anyway? Would we be able to provide our own cache maps, or would we need to overwrite bitmaps.map and such?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

You are are all a joke.

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Why do you have to make it so personal? :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kornman00

When I first posted about upgrading OS I was only aware of the tag memory, tag instance and cache size constants issues. Script data and unit limits came later when Master's read off his "ransom list" for OS and SPv2. If I'm going to expand the engine's powers, I'm going to do so in a way that doesn't break compatibility with official game data nor cause instability during play (not on purpose anyway).

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I apologize if the list came off seeming like a ransom note. If you're willing and able to do some of those extra things, then great, if not, then the original deal is fine. Please don't feel pressured to do those extra requests.

You know what pisses me off the most CMT guys? The way you are fucking kornman over. Your messing him around saying "yeah we will use it" then suddenly changing your mind.

Like kornman said updating it isnt an easy task, he has spent along time researching it your basically spitting in his face when you play him around.

Your willing to fuck him over, yet I bet at least one CMT member is using his updated HEK.

just..use the new OS. or something. whatever. just get this thing out at some point and have it as totally absolutely awesome as possible, i dont care how you do it. everyone else needs to stop bitching and picking sides and shit.

EDIT: lol misinformation

also screw 1.04.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arteen

I honestly never even noticed that we were using a special UI, so for me it's a matter of removing bloat, not quality, no offense.

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You still ignored the rest of it.

You ignored the argument says you wouldn't have to remove anything, and you also ignored the size issue over the past maybe 6 times it was brought up.

Bloat? Oh, because it was bloat when you guys wanted it in the first place?

Actually, what's most funny here is this:

Quote:

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Masterz1337: I was wondering if we could use it, since sp has no bitmap restrictions

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Oh well. Your loss. Slowly chipping away at yourselves...

Quote:

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Masterz1337: I was wondering if we could use it, since sp has no bitmap restrictions

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It's not a matter of restrictions, it's a matter of filesize. A zteam map without a shared sounds.map and bitmaps.map was 112MB, with the shared maps, that size was cut down to 28MB. That's a 75% decrease in size at the least. When SPV1 was released, wasn't file transfer a big issue? Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't you have to pay for some of the bandwidth lost from one of your mirrored sites? (really I don't remember.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

You ignored the argument says you wouldn't have to remove anything,

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I don't find it to be too much of an issue, personally. We're already stuffing more stuff into each map than we really need. I think the issues bothering you more than me, anyhow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

you also ignored the size issue over the past maybe 6 times it was brought up.

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I just asked for clarification on the size issue. How does that count as ignoring it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

Bloat? Oh, because it was bloat when you guys wanted it in the first place?

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It's just a UI. It really isn't a big deal to me. If we can get the gameplay content we want into the mod, then I really don't think we need to complicate the issue with OS when we can just streamline the UI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

Oh well. Your loss. Slowly chipping away at yourselves...

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Yes, our loss. Not yours, so why do you care so much?

Because you're like a suicidal person.

"Oh well, I guess they'll kill themselves. No use in talking them out of shooting their heads off because it's their loss."


And sorry for not seeing that question.

You can overwrite bitmaps and sounds, but by doing that, you'd make many unhappy because no other people (zteam) would be able to use them. You are best off making your own with OS.

What a great comparison. Comparing us to someone who is shooting their head off.

I'm pretty sure several great games have had to cut content as well. Its not that big of a deal. You just seem to want us to cram every thing we can into the mod when that is not the way it should be.

Reminds me of the maps where new modders will pile all the shit into the map that they can get their hands on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Limited

You know what pisses me off the most CMT guys? The way you are fucking kornman over. Your messing him around saying "yeah we will use it" then suddenly changing your mind.

Like kornman said updating it isnt an easy task, he has spent along time researching it your basically spitting in his face when you play him around.

Your willing to fuck him over, yet I bet at least one CMT member is using his updated HEK.

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That's whats pissing me off the most as well.
Also happens to be why paladin got so but hurt and decided to spam -rep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by il Duce Primo

What a great comparison. Comparing us to someone who is shooting their head off.

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Well it's essentially what you're doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by il Duce Primo

What a great comparison. Comparing us to someone who is shooting their head off.

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You're completely missing the point. You're sacrificing something for something completely retarded, is the point.

Ignorance still hasn't been pardoned yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FlamingRain

You're completely missing the point. You're sacrificing something for something completely retarded, is the point.

Ignorance still hasn't been pardoned yet.

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Because sacrificing the ability to switch your player color and name in campaign is more important than getting the mod out to so many people. Your'e retarded, that's the point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Limited

You know what pisses me off the most CMT guys? The way you are fucking kornman over. Your messing him around saying "yeah we will use it" then suddenly changing your mind.

Like kornman said updating it isnt an easy task, he has spent along time researching it your basically spitting in his face when you play him around.

Your willing to fuck him over, yet I bet at least one CMT member is using his updated HEK.

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That's not our intent. We don't want to commit to using OS if it won't help us in any significant way. That seems fair, right? We asked if he could do some extra stuff too, and if he can't or doesn't want to, then he shouldn't feel obligated to do so. I'm sorry if we've come across as overbearing in our request.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

You can overwrite bitmaps and sounds, but by doing that, you'd make many unhappy because no other people (zteam) would be able to use them. You are best off making your own with OS.

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Basically, we can create spv2bitmaps.map and spv2sounds.map, and our maps will reference them instead of the stock bitmaps.map and sounds.map? Sounds nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcap

You can overwrite bitmaps and sounds, but by doing that, you'd make many unhappy because no other people (zteam) would be able to use them. You are best off making your own with OS.

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Actually, our tools allow us to decompile any sounds.map/bitmaps.map file and add to it. So theoretically, if cmt released their own sounds.map and bitmaps.map, we can decompile them and add our own tags alongside cmt's and release that way. Though the way kornman seems to be doing the shared resource files, you'll have a config.txt file specifying the map names (ie:cmtbitmaps.map, cmtsounds.map) then open sauce will load those cache files into memory and read from them as necessary. That's what I gathered from korn's post about it anyway.

Yeah, that's what OS would do.

Only problem with reversing CMT's work and adding on, I guess, would be if you had conflicting tags. Also, if you had to do that, then you would need to release files that are twice the size. OS would just make it easier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disaster

I'm pretty sure several great games have had to cut content as well. Its not that big of a deal. You just seem to want us to cram every thing we can into the mod when that is not the way it should be.

Reminds me of the maps where new modders will pile all the shit into the map that they can get their hands on.

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What's called a "feature creep" in the industry. When new features are continually added to a game during production which causes delays, errors, and sometimes missed deadlines. End result being a very buggy game or a game with so much shit in it no one cares to try to figure it all out.

This leaves me with one suggestion to not just CMT, but everyone. You can always have another version of a mod, you don't need to fit everything you can think into one version (which is cmt tends to do >_>)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disaster

You just seem to want us to cram every thing we can into the mod when that is not the way it should be.

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You know, I'm glad you said this because the irony is that CMT seems to be the ones wanting to cram everything in, rather than use OS and not have to.:eyesroll: