Originally Posted by
Aggy and JCap
Agamemnon
Because InnerGoat obviously wasn't one. I locked the thread in the tech board for a reason on my last post, and he opened it back up. That is an absolute disgrace.
Jcap
So because of some dumb thing one person does, you end up flipping and turning everything upside down? It wasn't even an insult, but the same shit we have been pulling on each other from the start. I fail to see how this comes back to me, or why Pat even came in and tried to put the burden on me.
Agamemnon
Probably because it was time to come out and start speaking the truth about the place. And it's completely different when you have technotwat doc reopening threads and moving them just so he can feed the fire. Snaf was the only one who acted like a human being on the matter and everyone else took advantage of Internet anonymity to show their true colors. So after I figured you had some fool in a moderation position that it was time to actually say something publicly instead of privately, like I always had been.
Jcap
You speak as if you we never part of what drove the list. What fire was he feeding? Until now, you never showed anything. I never even participated with the an hero list, as you can see from the various threads in this forum.
Agamemnon
Yeah, that's just the thing. You didn't participate in trying to clean up your own forum. Ross and others were doing your job.
Jcap
I really don't understand at all right now. You are exposing the truth that would make you and everyone else look bad for the criticisms towards those members, and it would also make me look bad for allowing it to go on and not outright ban them?
They weren't doing my job. They weren't doing anything but creating a record of all the members who pissed him off at some time. I would be looked on terribly if I ended up banning everyone on that list. If they do something wrong that is the size of a grain of sand, even repetitively, why ban them? I did take a step in cleaning up the members. With this forum, we have been able to get through to the troublemakers without getting rid of them forever.
One thing I find funny is how you claim you posted the thread in a place where people "don't act like idiots or egotists," then you come along and fuck everything up and act like you don't have an ego that is bigger than the oceans of the world.
Agamemnon
Half the people on the list were added by Rossmum because they crossed him wrong. Dole was the only real person that needed to be banned. I still don't see why Emmzee was except everyone else complained enough. That was the gist of it. If we all complained enough it happened. We all complained about the PC specs option being broken and you finally decided to fix it.
And this board is a horrible alternative. Internet anonymity gives people feeling and power to do what ever they wish without consequences. You decided to give Dole that much power over you, and because you did, his welcome here was long-overstayed. Your methods are weak and act too much on wishful thinking. You lack the iron fist and initiative to actually move forward and do what is necessary to fix this place up, and, instead, you try and set up a jail, and we all know just how well rehabilitation centers work, especially in real life situations.
As a matter of fact, you're only here because a real problem has risen up. On every other matter you're a ghost--just as much Ghost is himself. And since Zeph and Timo are in the same boat in time management, the only real person that was left up to doing anything was someone who doesn't even take this place seriously. That's what this is all about. I've been saying it for months now on the conspiracy boards, and when Doc felt like he would take matter into his own hands (unlocking the thread after I locked it because it turned into a disaster), it became quite clear how well the matters around here are handled, especially when we all know first hand that we don't see results until we all complain enough.
And try and stick to the matter at hand. Yes, I have an ego. What a surprise that is. Me, the one to have the initiative to do something about the problem that is this site--to speak out knowing what the consequences would be. I had the balls to do that, for the community, for maybe with the small hope of this place being fixed--and I end up getting punished for it. I might have had the arrogance to do something about the problems surrounding this site by planting the seed of destruction, but I'm not the arrogant one acting like as if nothing is wrong.
Have fun with this disaster you have here.
Jcap
You say that it's bad that I don't do anything about the list, then you say it's good, then bad, now good. I NEVER ONCE fell to the pressure that they put on me when it came to the list, yet you claim I don't put my fist down? Emmzee was banned for the same reason as Dole was, the same as Xet, and the same as Veegie will be.
You don't understand jack fucking shit about the PC specs. Just shut the fuck up about that. There's several reasons GHOST AND I couldn't have done anything on our own. The reason it was put off for so long is because of how unimportant it really is and because of how much work would have to go into getting it working. It isn't a one-click install, especially after the several updates we did on the forums.
Oh, yeah, we do know how rehab centers work. They work amazingly well. Once you can identify what their problem is, most can be fixed. Some are broken for life, but the majority do something wrong once and realize they can help themselves. Though I am no fan of Michael Moore, I have to point out his follow-up segment to his documentary, Sicko, on how there is a country whose sentences are fairly short and they get put on an island with everything we have in our normal lives so they can fix themselves.
When this forum was created, Ghost never wanted it to be a super strict asshole-run place. He didn't want the members to be afraid of the staff and to hold back from wanting to contribute. Whenever there is an issue, I will reason if it is something which should be put on the backburner, but if it is severe enough, I'll attack it right away. You really have no idea how to run a forum. Maybe I don't either, but what you think is absolutely NOT what can be done.
You feel you made a sacrifice to "help" make it "better". That's not being a hero - that's called being stupid.
You are the arrogant one who feels that everything is wrong due to a lack of logic.
Agamemnon
And what "justified" reasons are those? Xet hasn't had a flare of any attitude or negative comments, and neither has Emmzee. Emmzee's problem was remote, and, instead, you decided to just get rid of him. Hell, Veegie doesn't even come around here any more, and the threat he was to the forums has come and gone, back when he was a problem. Dole should've gotten the message from his first temp ban, and when that became apparently clear after the temp ban was lifted on him, you should've permabanned him then, not when I had to write a thesis on the things he has done wrong here.
Smooth with that language as well Jcap, real smooth. Try and keep a level head here; I am. I don't know anything about plugin modules for vBulletin, mostly because I've had zero experience with vBulletin, but what I can guess is that the problem had to do more so with not taking the time in trying to make it compatible.
And I understand your anger. I've never run a forum or any of that jazz and you feel insulted because I have the arrogance to question it, but that's the thing, Jcap. That is a luxury I have. You talk about how you didn't want this forum to have feared administrators, and yet here I am, questioning your methods, and you're getting overtly upset about it. So which is it, Jcap? I mean, instead of not being feared, you end up literally becoming a ghost. Instead of showing that you're in control, everyone runs around like this place is a joke. I don't need to tell you the numerous IMs I got from various people expressing how they felt like as if they never saw the two of you. So, again, your choice. This place is a mess because you let it be.
And about your whole Michael Moore comparison; those are two completely different situations. This is the Internet. Anonymity reigns here and gives people the incentive to just act like jack asses or act like their true selves. You honestly think putting them in a kid-esque time out playground area is going to change their mind? Who do you think you are actually fooling, Jcap?
And if you honestly believe sacrificing yourself for the good of others is "stupid," then we're getting some where in your actual thought process. I point out the administration's faults and set the truth upon the community and I'm called a fool and I'm banned. You could've stopped this whole thing if you took the initiative when the question was first brought up, months before when Rossmum and I kept repeatedly criticizing the state of the forums. You could've done something instead of waiting for Ghost to confirm another mod, despite how he'd take months of absences. I remember that when you spoke to me about it on AIM one night and how you had potential candidates, and the only real potential candidate you had in mind was Lightning, who was also just as busy as everyone else.
And it all leads up to a point, Jcap. See, you talk about your rules, you talk about trust, and you talk about running things, and all you're doing is setting up responsibility that you don't have the time to take. Instead of giving the moderator position to someone like Snaf or WaveOfLag, you already set yourself up for defeat, because you automatically believe that their past behavior will influence their future behavior. Being a moderator is a responsibility, one which I am sure Snaf or WoL would have happily accepted and then completely changed their mindset in posting habits. But you wouldn't know that, because you never gave them the chance to prove themselves. Instead, you were only thinking about offering the position to the ones that had already distinguished themselves to be just like you--too nice, too lax, and too busy.
You talk about embarrassment, but what you fail to realize is that is what you exactly need; to be embarrassed. If you can't handle embarrassment, then you can see where and why I question your methods, because when you're being called out for your faults, you shouldn't react negatively, like you have, nor should you silence the negative feedback. What you should've done is nodded and realized that this was the last straw I was trying to pick here. What I did with that alt clearly showed that. Two members immediately jumped down my throat, and yet they've done it in the past continually, and yet they are still there. I goaded Aerowyn into responding negatively, and instead of acting like an adult, she responded just as nastily. These are the people that you should be looking at. Rossmum probably has to be the biggest exception in moderating history, especially with his alt shenanigans and the amount of insults he has dished out to others because of a conflict in interest, and yet no one bothered to set him aside and say, "Take it easy on the new guys."
You need to hear that. You need that to sink in your mind. And apparently the only way I can even get you to think about it is by starting conflict and drama, which is why I did what I did. I revealed the conspiracies. So what? Do you know half the people that did IM me asking me about why I was banned already knew about it? Most of them saying Rossmum told them about it? The boards aren't a secret, especially with Bacon knowing about them and telling everyone about them, so why would showing it as public knowledge then become a bannable offense? Why would Doc tell me my ONI account wasn't susceptible to a ban because it was created before the alt rule was mandated and then ban it when I logged on? Why, because I persisted in an issue? And how professional was that handled, then? A full perma ban? What ever happened to this "intricate" warning system you set up?
The fact of the matter is that you've done nothing but stumble over this issue with what I revealed and my purposeful reason to starting an alt to rise up conflict. I showed you just how well the community responds to new members. That is something that is going to continually happen until you start punishing both who are involved in the conflict, and a slap on the wrists is not going to do much, so the question is, once again, whether you will decide to take the initiative and do what is necessary.
Until then, I'm gone. The majority of the people in the conspiracy agreed about how this place was going in a downward spiral and, since then, plenty of "regulars" have become infrequent visitors, with some not coming back at all, and just to further hit home on the idea, this all could've been prevented if you decided to do something about it instead of watch it pass the point of no return.
Also, Polar, this was not about Rossmum and I. We always argue like that. Hell, he IMs me later and we joke about it. If you honestly believe that's what this was about, then I thought wrong about you.
I was just talking to Aggy, and I'll tell you what I told him- I love this community, and nearly every member on these forums. It feels like a second family to me. And I can't stand to see such tension between the kids and the parents in my family. But maybe kids will be kids, and we'll always be annoyed at the seemingly arbitrary rules and punishments our parents dish out on us, but in the end our parents are doing it just because they love us.
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