A Look Behind the Scenes at H2V Programming

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Originally Posted by Nick

To them, it was worth it. They are not giving out a free engine to be used for whatever game ideas you may want to explore - they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime. What they do want is you to make new content for their game that will make sense in the scope of their game, especially now that all kinds of people will be getting your map automatically if it is on a public server.

I'm not arguing that it's good or that it is right. What I am saying is that they did make the right business choice and that's what games are - a business. Additionally, no one was "lied to" about the abilities of the HEK; they said you could make new maps and you can make new maps. I'm just laying out some facts, that's all; there are no opinions to disagree with.

Nick

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Can I atleast blame "them" for making it a business decision? :( I gotta have a good scape goat.

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Originally Posted by [EJ] Bean

Can I atleast blame "them" for making it a business decision? :( I gotta have a good scape goat.

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When in doubt, blame NiTrOuSoXiDe :D
that fucking douche bag only knows how to give head D:<
also,
Nick

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/a...hoenix_004.jpg

To argue the "right business choice", what about the potential revenue they'd draw in if they made the editor [almost] completely open? Someone hears about this awesome mod, they ask what engine it's on, and they say "Halo 2 Vista." The person then buys the game, and then plays this mod. While they didn't buy the game to play Halo 2, it's money in their pocket.

Of course, there's always the argument of possible IP infringement, but then again, it'd still be real easy to infringe many-an-IP with the tools provided. Nothing besides lack of skill is stopping me from instancing some Half-Life 2 characters as statues into the main level geometry, or changing a texture on a crate to look like a Super Mario Bros. item block.

I'm simply stating that I don't see what makes this the "right" business choice. I'm not challenging Microsoft's decision to limit modification on the Blam 2 engine (anymore, at least).

I don't feel like arguing, so I'll save you the trouble.

I win by default.

Thank you for playing, have a nice day.

Nick

too bad it's not like BF2 where they embrace mods. They just have Punker Buster that keeps people using modded games joining non-modded servers. Or so I think...I don't have the least idea how it works.

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Originally Posted by Nick

To them, it was worth it. They are not giving out a free engine to be used for whatever game ideas you may want to explore - they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime.

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And this is what fucking makes me sick about microsoft. Worth it? How much are they going to shove down their piss covered bullshit "business decisions" down our throats? Yes they produce games and sell them for money, no problem; no one is asking for a free game. Anywhere else they just need step the fuck out and let the actual game developers have a say in what the game and it's features are. This is where they cross the line when they enforce restrictions to work against the will of developers and the players, and most of all to the PC modding community for their own personal priorities. Modding is what makes PC games unique and separates them from the console counter parts. Epic understands this, ID software understands this, Valve understands this, so why won't MS get with the damn drift? Mods are NOT business competition as microsoft may arrogantly think, they push along innovation in games and extend game life and value. Their is no need to go the extra mile to restrict them from being created unless their priority is to ensure innovation moves at their own pace and that the game's life span is as short as possible so users would go out to buy more games more frequently. Is that whats it worth?

This statement right here "- they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime" is just a complete slap in the face into anyone who truly shares passion for any modding community as that is the pure essence of what modding is all about. And how the hell is it "on their dime" if we are the ones who spend our time, blood, sweat and tears in putting our own new ideas into a dieing game to give it more life and higher value? Especially when they had to pay to have the editing kit locked, have crucial features removed, and extensive extra testing done to the editing kit to make sure it can function after its been broken.

[/rant]

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Originally Posted by jahrain

And this is what fucking makes me sick about microsoft. Worth it? How much are they going to shove down their piss covered bullshit "business decisions" down our throats? Yes they produce games and sell them for money, no problem; no one is asking for a free game. Anywhere else they just need step the fuck out and let the actual game developers have a say in what the game and it's features are. This is where they cross the line when they enforce restrictions to work against the will of developers and the players, and most of all to the PC modding community for their own personal priorities. Modding is what makes PC games unique and separates them from the console counter parts. Epic understands this, ID software understands this, Valve understands this, so why won't MS get with the damn drift? Mods are NOT business competition as microsoft may arrogantly think, they push along innovation in games and extend game life and value. Their is no need to go the extra mile to restrict them from being created unless their priority is to ensure innovation moves at their own pace and that the game's life span is as short as possible so users would go out to buy more games more frequently. Is that whats it worth?

This statement right here "- they don't want you to prototype your game ideas on their dime" is just a complete slap in the face into anyone who truly shares passion for any modding community as that is the pure essence of what modding is all about. And how the hell is it "on their dime" if we are the ones who spend our time, blood, sweat and tears in putting our own new ideas into a dieing game to give it more life and higher value? Especially when they had to pay to have the editing kit locked, have crucial features removed, and extensive extra testing done to the editing kit to make sure it can function after its been broken.

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ALL AGREED with!!!, That is why i have steped away for awhile. Very discouraged at the moment. As of right now i have HOURS of hard work that seem to be wasted. Theres so many cool things Ive been holding out on to release to this community, but cant :(. Believe me Jahrain, if i had any skill in programing id be helping you and korman every single minute.

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Originally Posted by jahrain

:words: separates them from the console counter parts. :words: so why won't MS get with the damn drift? :words:
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At its heart, Halo is a console game. And before you start to go on about how it was originally for the Mac, money things change (for the mentally challenged, MS buying Bungie). Halo was going to be a RTS, but things changed.

At least they ported* the damn game to PC, n1663r can't you be grateful for what you get? The engine is Bungie's IP. They can decide who does what and how with it. Its just like any other fucking company's IP for any other industry.

For those of you with the "omg Microsoft just wants money!" mentality. MS provides millions of people with jobs. If the Indians are smart enough to take an American's job in his\her home land, don't you think they will realize they can tilt the proverbial pinball machine of employers to get paid more for their "superior" brains? Shouldn't we be blaming Indians outsourcing, and oil right now and quoting southpark episodes instead of staring at the first light we see?

Nick Kicn

* -ported is highlighted for a reason. Halo 2 xbox didn't include a editing kit, why all of a sudden is it implied that a PORTED game should get it? Gearbox didn't PORT this game remember...

Kornman, you totaly rock you and UBX know why MS isn't trying to get money.

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Originally Posted by jahrain

hurrr[/rant]

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Microsoft is the publisher and that means Microsoft pays the bills. That means Microsoft gets to make the calls. Stop crying like a little bitch, really; you were promised a map editing toolset and you got a map editing toolset. Just because you can't have your way and make another crappy Zelda mod with stolen models (yeah, that's some blood and passion alright) doesn't mean that the editing kit is "bad" for the community - it gives us more Halo universe maps and for those that actually like Halo ... that is what we want.

Oh, you don't like Halo? Then don't buy the god damn game called Halo to prototype your rubbish ideas in. Go buy Half-Life 2 since Valve is your god; go use the Source engine to serve as a backend for your stolen concepts and content.

Why would Microsoft not want to "open up" Halo's engine for any type of content? Simply because it was not designed to be that type of engine. Engine production is expensive and the Halo engine has always been a targeted one; compared to the flexibility of the Source or Unreal engines, it is completely ill-suited to play host to different genres or even slightly modified gameplay (since all of the gameplay logic is hardcoded and is not extensible). Bungie, before they were purchased by Microsoft, made a business decision to create that type of engine as they were not going to be reselling it (like Valve, id, and Epic do); after being purchased, that decision was upheld.

Now really, how about you just go to a community that "understands" you as a "modder" and leave this community the hell alone? You constantly say how much Microsoft sucks, how much the tools suck, how much Bungie is a sellout, how much this and how much that - so why surround yourself with it? Leave.

Nick

P.S. Kornman, just to be clear: Bungie changed Halo to a FPS from a RTS before they were purchased by Microsoft.

I was using that as a change example god Nick ;)

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Originally Posted by jahrain

How much are they going to shove down their piss covered bullshit "business decisions" down our throats?

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Like any company, as much as you are willing to pay to swallow. But I am being flip. The decisions they made from their perspective are the ones they feel make sense to their business, and are not the same decisions made by Epic or Valve or Crytek. Besides, based on your vitriolic attacks of them it appears as if there is nothing they could ever do to appease you.

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Originally Posted by Nick

What they do want is you to make new content for their game that will make sense in the scope of their game, especially now that all kinds of people will be getting your map automatically if it is on a public server.

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This pretty much sums up their implied intent and is consistent with their history in video games as well as software in general. They said they would deliver a map editor and they did. They did not say they would be offering an SDK like Unreal, Source, Crysis or even Halo CE. Personally I would prefer more people put actual effort into the level designs than in adding new weapons, vehicles or bipeds. But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by p0lar_bear

I don't see what makes this the "right" business choice. I'm not challenging Microsoft's decision to limit modification on the Blam 2 engine (anymore, at least).

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No one here can say that it is the "right choice" because none of us were in on the decision making. Since MS is not actively marketing the Blam! engine for licensing as the aforementioned companies are doing then decisions made for the editing kits will be different, meaning, in my opinion, not as open.

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Originally Posted by Stealth

UBX know why MS isn't trying to get money.

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HUH?

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Originally Posted by UXB

Personally I would prefer more people put actual effort into the level designs than in adding new weapons, vehicles or bipeds. But that's just me.

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<3 +rep

I don't know about you, but to me, half the fun of modding a locked game like this is to watch the toolsets develop over time.

I would like to be able to make scenery, but that might just be me... As much time as I spend in map layout, I feel most of it is wasted if I cannot make it look right, and scenery is a big part of that.

So I just figured out how to do OOP in Maxscript...

Ghost, are you trying to turn this thread into one of those never ending stories ~:mad:>?

why dont we get bum's opinion on this? lol

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Originally Posted by Chewy Gumball

I would like to be able to make scenery, but that might just be me... As much time as I spend in map layout, I feel most of it is wasted if I cannot make it look right, and scenery is a big part of that.

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Instanced geometry > scenery

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Originally Posted by Llama Juice

Instanced geometry > scenery

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I thought making the bsp have built in scenery as apposed to a scenery tag was supposed to cause uncessesary poly count and lag. Is it differne't with halo 2?

Thanks you guys. I'm really excited to see what else you create. You've given back hope to this game.

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Originally Posted by [EJ] Bean

I thought making the bsp have built in scenery as apposed to a scenery tag was supposed to cause uncessesary poly count and lag. Is it differne't with halo 2?

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In halo 2, its supposed to cause less lag.

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Originally Posted by Llama Juice

Instanced geometry > scenery

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Not always. Scenery can be damaged. The Covenant stationary shield generator is a perfect example.

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Originally Posted by flyinrooster

In halo 2, its supposed to cause less lag.

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That's true. H2 allows instancing, which means the same geometry is used over and over with different lighting, while being loaded only once.

Is instancing a speperate process, or just a word i'm unfamiliar with. Like I I made a chair in 3ds max, and destributed it across my level and then exported it would be considered instanced geometry, right?

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Originally Posted by spookers622

why dont we get bum's opinion on this? lol

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yea, that'd be an idea, but I'm wondering what well happen.

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Originally Posted by Nick

Microsoft is the publisher and that means Microsoft pays the bills. That means Microsoft gets to make the calls. Stop crying like a little bitch, really; you were promised a map editing toolset and you got a map editing toolset. Just because you can't have your way and make another crappy Zelda mod with stolen models (yeah, that's some blood and passion alright) doesn't mean that the editing kit is "bad" for the community - it gives us more Halo universe maps and for those that actually like Halo ... that is what we want.

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Stop crying like a little bitch every time I have a rant against microsoft. And the only thing that makes me cry is having to read your horrid defacement of simple logic.

They did promise a "map editor", but no where does that imply by all means of logic that it will be restricted to only BSP editing since the models, skybox, scenery, and even the vehicles and weapons are part of the "map" in the game. They promised they will provide tool, sapien, and guerilla for editing, like in HEK and no where saying 95&#37; of it will be locked or removed. Most people's minimum expectations was to be at least able to do as they did in Halo CE prior to H2v's release, as it is a newer version of the game with a newer version of the engine. Who the hell expects that newer versions of software to have significantly less or more restricted features? Anyways, Im the first one who originally assumed the editing kit would be locked as it is now when the first few announcements of h2v having a map editor was made. My rant is not against them for not having it my way, it is against the reasoning behind why they did what they did.

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Originally Posted by Nick

Oh, you don't like Halo? Then don't buy the god damn game called Halo to prototype your rubbish ideas in. Go buy Half-Life 2 since Valve is your god; go use the Source engine to serve as a backend for your stolen concepts and content.

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No nicky boy, no where did I say I don't like halo. I love the game halo, and I respect bungie for their work as game developers. My ideas of how to innovate or improve the game to my own tastes by putting in other ideas and aspects into the game for my own enjoyment is my way of admiring the game for what it is. It doesn't bother me how much you may think my biped models, or vehicles added to the game is nothing but rubbish, I put them in to the game to add to it and give it more flavor to my own liking. Think of it as adding your own spices to one of your favorite foods. It doesn't mean you hate it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't eat it because it doesn't have that particular spice you want in it. Obviously you fail to understand what the meaning behind modding is and thats a shame coming from you of all people.

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Originally Posted by Nick

Why would Microsoft not want to "open up" Halo's engine for any type of content? Simply because it was not designed to be that type of engine. Engine production is expensive and the Halo engine has always been a targeted one; compared to the flexibility of the Source or Unreal engines, it is completely ill-suited to play host to different genres or even slightly modified gameplay (since all of the gameplay logic is hardcoded and is not extensible). Bungie, before they were purchased by Microsoft, made a business decision to create that type of engine as they were not going to be reselling it (like Valve, id, and Epic do); after being purchased, that decision was upheld.

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Thats bull. The engine is perfectly capable of allowing new models, animations, etc added to the game. None of that is hard coded into the game. Unreal and Source are somewhat open sourced which is why someone can completely create a completely different genre from the engine as what has been hard coded can be modified. That is no where comparable. Even with a full unlocked editing kit, no one could turn halo 2 into a RTS or MMORPG now could they? You failed to reason why they would intentionally restrict the editing from even allowing a damn custom tree scenery model or even a freaking new skybox to be put in game when it is 100% technically possible. Try again.

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Originally Posted by Nick

Now really, how about you just go to a community that "understands" you as a "modder" and leave this community the hell alone? You constantly say how much Microsoft sucks, how much the tools suck, how much Bungie is a sellout, how much this and how much that - so why surround yourself with it? Leave.

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I am part of many communities, even emulation. I'm here because, like kornman, I am working to develop tools for halo 2 editing as well as to find ways to create custom content for the game and to unfail what microsoft has done to the game for the community. Don't like it when customers complain? Leave the damn software industry, and leave this forum because its filled up to your eyeballs in disgruntled unsatisfied customers. Unlike microsoft, at least i'm trying to do something about what people are complaining about in h2v instead of just telling them to be grateful they got anything at all for their money.

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Originally Posted by jahrain

Stop crying like a little bitch every time I have a rant against microsoft. And the only thing that makes me cry is having to read your horrid defacement of simple logic.

They did promise a "map editor", but no where does that imply by all means of logic that it will be restricted to only BSP editing since the models, skybox, scenery, and even the vehicles and weapons are part of the "map" in the game. They promised they will provide tool, sapien, and guerilla for editing, like in HEK and no where saying 95% of it will be locked or removed. Most people's minimum expectations was to be at least able to do as they did in Halo CE prior to H2v's release, as it is a newer version of the game with a newer version of the engine. Who the hell expects that newer versions of software to have significantly less or more restricted features? Anyways, Im the first one who originally assumed the editing kit would be locked as it is now when the first few announcements of h2v having a map editor was made. My rant is not against them for not having it my way, it is against the reasoning behind why they did what they did.

No nicky boy, no where did I say I don't like halo. I love the game halo, and I respect bungie for their work as game developers. My ideas of how to innovate or improve the game to my own tastes by putting in other ideas and aspects into the game for my own enjoyment is my way of admiring the game for what it is. It doesn't bother me how much you may think my biped models, or vehicles added to the game is nothing but rubbish, I put them in to the game to add to it and give it more flavor to my own liking. Think of it as adding your own spices to one of your favorite foods. It doesn't mean you hate it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't eat it because it doesn't have that particular spice you want in it. Obviously you fail to understand what the meaning behind modding is and thats a shame coming from you of all people.


Thats bull. The engine is perfectly capable of allowing new models, animations, etc added to the game. None of that is hard coded into the game. Unreal and Source are somewhat open sourced which is why someone can completely create a completely different genre from the engine as what has been hard coded can be modified. That is no where comparable. Even with a full unlocked editing kit, no one could turn halo 2 into a RTS or MMORPG now could they? You failed to reason why they would intentionally restrict the editing from even allowing a damn custom tree scenery model or even a freaking skybox to be put in game when it is 100% technically possible. Try again.



I am part of many communities, even emulation. I'm here because, like kornman, I am working to develop tools for halo 2 editing as well as to find ways to create custom content for the game and to unfail what microsoft has done to the game for the community. Don't like it when customers complain? Leave the damn software industry, and leave this forum because its filled up to your eyeballs in disgruntled unsatisfied customers. Unlike microsoft, at least i'm trying to do something about what people are complaining about in h2v instead of just telling them to be grateful they got anything at all for their money.

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:shocked:

Jahrain's recent rants (that I've read) have all made a lot of sense to me. I think where Nick says, "take it or leave it, complainer," we're saying that okay isn't good enough. I really believe that gaming studios have a responsibility to their gamers if they want to be successful. Of course, they don't have to do jack shit if they don't want to, but sooner or later it's going to catch up to them. Very poor decisions were made on Microsoft's part, and if they want to repair their image, they need to repair the damage they've done first instead of shoving more BS done our throats.

People should calm down and think about how each other's rants/rebuttals relate to taking a look behind the scenes at H2V programming. I'm sure another thread would be suitable for that debate.

Do you guys get the problem where the body doesn't ragdoll if there is like more than 8 people? Because if you do, I would like the first thing to made for this is to make all the maps to the rag-doll thing with 16 people, that would be an awesome mod. Great Job Guys! Glad to see this finally hit H2V.

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Originally Posted by flyinrooster

Masterz? You got some 'splainin to do...

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*calls masterz*

TURN ON H2V NOW AND GIVE ME UR BETAAZ BEFORE I F33T HAXOR U OLOLK.:XD:

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Originally Posted by teh lag

Not always. Scenery can be damaged. The Covenant stationary shield generator is a perfect example.

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True, but for most things (rocks trees lights and the like...) instancing makes things so much easier to accurately place rather than having to use sapien's horrid widget thinger

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Originally Posted by Conscars

I really believe that gaming studios have a responsibility to their gamers if they want to be successful.

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And what if said studios don't want it to be successful :raise:?

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Originally Posted by boltdwright

Do you guys get the problem where the body doesn't ragdoll if there is like more than 8 people? Because if you do, I would like the first thing to made for this is to make all the maps to the rag-doll thing with 16 people, that would be an awesome mod. Great Job Guys! Glad to see this finally hit H2V.

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I'm pretty sure thats a engine limitation that HG didn't know about or didn't see as a problem that needed to be addressed (as it could have delayed things). Bungie had to handle Havok so that it never stole too much memory (you do want to see SOME bitmaps don't you?).

I'm sure they added the ESRB warning before the game starts for no reason I suppose?

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Originally Posted by Conscars

Jahrain's recent rants (that I've read) have all made a lot of sense to me. I think where Nick says, "take it or leave it, complainer," we're saying that okay isn't good enough.

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Rants may make the "ranter" feel better but they do nothing except alienate people, cloud the real issues with meaningless drivel and obscure logical thinking.

In the end, after all the name calling, you are still only left with the option to purchase or not to purchase.

Unfortunately, since this thread has gone way off-topic, it will now be closed. Since it was an effort by multiple individuals, I won't be giving out any warnings or anything, but it's really a shame that a thread devoted to accomplishment and progress has been turned into a tirade against game stuiods and ill-mannered debate.

We'll keep you posted, I guess.

Locked.

I just fixed my code so that it works with the halo2 xbox alpha again. With a few extra functions, I could easily convert the mongoose to be up to date (which along with many other secret things, was in the alpha) and used in xbox or pc :-3

also,


needs moar halo3 :-3